Rain

[PJR202]

I hate how horrible their tread life is. I have about 7k miles on mine and the rears are just about toast. The fronts are probably about 50%. This is with a whole lot of highway miles and a bit of spirited driving through backroads. Also for how much they cost you can definitely get better tires. Other than that though, I don't mind them. I'll never buy a new set of them, but for stock tires they aren't terrible.

I've had no trouble with traction or performance out of them. I got about 14k on my rears and I took them WAY down, past the indicators. The fronts still have probably 60% or better. I was pissed about it (even though I'd read they wouldn't last long) because I've never tracked it and only did one burnout on purpose, which was very brief. But, although this may make me sound stupid, I realized that my almost daily 2nd gear pull on a local road wasn't just resulting in my fishtailing slightly. I'm pretty sure my tires were mostly broken loose until just before I hit third, despite not leaving any burnout marks. So.....I did some sort of burnout at least 5 times a week..LOL

But, I decided to buy two Pzero rears instead of buying four all seasons. I got two 275's used for 300 bucks shipped with a lot of tread life left. I'll ride these out until mid fall then spring for some performance all seasons so I can winter drive. I've put too many miles on my truck this winter. I need it to last another 5 years..lol

Sponsored

 

[Norm Peterson]

Never said I drive with on and off throttle. Even with feeling the grip you gonna have to pass it to know where the limit is. You will not know where the limit is without exceeding it. Plus grip change all over the place on the road so how would you know how much grip is on asphalt vs concrete.
There is nothing bad about spinning tires as long as you know how to control the slide countersteer it. I remember you are the one claiming electrons are bad and I still disagree with you. Electronics are good aiding exploring the limits without getting too out of control.

"Giving it some beans" implies poorish throttle discipline, which is a bad thing to keep teaching yourself. Being able to catch a spin is one thing; intentionally driving in a manner likely to provoke one quite another. Better still would be to feel the potential for a spin increasing.

It is possible to sneak up very close to a car's limits without blowing through them and then having to countersteer. I don't know how to describe this, but I've been there. Specifically with new-ish "all-season tires" on a wet road, actually.

It's even possible to adjust your car's heading with the throttle on a long wet corner without using any steering or spinning. But you won't be doing that by "giving it some beans". Been there, too (on the track, with throttle changes too small for my instructor to feel even though they were pretty obvious to me).

Chances are, those whose driving experience is with the nannies always having their backs won't truly understand the last two paragraphs, because either AdvanceTrak or TC would have stepped in and killed the "too much slip/too-much slip angle" situation before a big enough message from the contact patches could get back to the driver (I think mostly through the steering wheel). The whole point of the nannies is to keep people below the point where tire friction curves are about to nose over and drop off instead of continuing to rise in more or less linear fashion with increasing slip or slip angle.

Here's a mu-slip curve for braking (the acceleration slip and cornering slip angle curves are similar). Stability control generally leaves the highest few percent of peak grip unavailable (I won't suggest any numbers here), meaning that you can't find out the true behavior in that region with them on. A lot of "feel" happens up there where the curve flattens out - if you're paying attention and sneaking up on it gradually enough.

Norm

 

[jasonstang]

You can't "explore the limits" with AdvanceTrac on, it would be continuously interfering and altering what you feel and experience, by chopping power and applying brakes at different wheels.

You would be learning how AdvanceTrac behaves at the limits of adhesion, not how you and your (nanny-free) Mustang behave at the limit. Those are two very different things.

The advancetrac will kick in when you are REALLY reaching the grip limit but you will already feel the tires start losing grip by feeling how the car behave and how the engine noise change when you accelerate. Keeping the advancetrac on allows you to go over that limit without being out of control. Yes you can still be out of control but only to some degree before the system pull it back.

 

[jasonstang]

"Giving it some beans" implies poorish throttle discipline, which is a bad thing to keep teaching yourself. Being able to catch a spin is one thing; intentionally driving in a manner likely to provoke one quite another. Better still would be to feel the potential for a spin increasing.

It is possible to sneak up very close to a car's limits without blowing through them and then having to countersteer. I don't know how to describe this, but I've been there. Specifically with new-ish "all-season tires" on a wet road, actually.

It's even possible to adjust your car's heading with the throttle on a long wet corner without using any steering or spinning. But you won't be doing that by "giving it some beans". Been there, too (on the track, with throttle changes too small for my instructor to feel even though they were pretty obvious to me).

Chances are, those whose driving experience is with the nannies always having their backs won't truly understand the last two paragraphs, because either AdvanceTrak or TC would have stepped in and killed the "too much slip/too-much slip angle" situation before a big enough message from the contact patches could get back to the driver (I think mostly through the steering wheel). The whole point of the nannies is to keep people below the point where tire friction curves are about to nose over and drop off instead of continuing to rise in more or less linear fashion with increasing slip or slip angle.

Here's a mu-slip curve for braking (the acceleration slip and cornering slip angle curves are similar). Stability control generally leaves the highest few percent of peak grip unavailable (I won't suggest any numbers here), meaning that you can't find out the true behavior in that region with them on. A lot of "feel" happens up there where the curve flattens out - if you're paying attention and sneaking up on it gradually enough.

Norm

When I "give it the beans" I am anticipating what's gonna happen because I want it to happen. I have driven cars without nannies in snow and slippery conditions and ridden bikes on a wet race track. I fully understand how throttle works and what happens when you go over the static friction into the sliding friction zone.
Yes you can oversteer without even touch the gas pedal. It's not hard to do and a nice skill to use on a track called trail braking to rotate the car into the corner.
Again as I said, nannies are good because you are not driving on a race track with grip that is about the same everywhere. In real world, you can be rolling on the throttle half way though a corner an oil patch throw your car into a wild spin. There is nothing you can do but the nannies can save you because ESP can apply brakes individually and you can't.
The other thing is maybe you should try drifting sometimes. Being able to balance the slip angle with throttle is a good feeling. You can provoke the car into a controlled slide and hold it there.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I remember you are the one claiming electrons are bad and I still disagree with you. Electronics are good aiding exploring the limits without getting too out of control.

I know I've said that "the electronics" can still get it wrong (they can, sometimes even ABS), if that's what you're remembering. Stability control intervention is generally benign, but that's not the word you'd use to describe it if it were to kick in on a decreasing-radius on-ramp curve and delay your acceleration up to highway speed.

I've probably also suggested that it is possible to become just as safe of a road driver and at least as good of a track day/autocross driver with a background that does not include either TC or stability control assistance. You don't have to go past the limits to develop a good idea where they are. Or to err on the side of caution when you're not sure what you do have to work with.

If I could CTRL-ALT-DEL myself back to when I first got my license and do it all over again with TC and stability control available, I'd still choose to go 'barefoot' (without either).


Norm

 

[bluebeastsrt]

All I know is. If I was the OP I'd be beating my head against a wall right now. The advice in this thread is all over the map. Learn to drive. Buy tires. Go to driving school. My car does great in the rain and snow. Don't know why everyone say that?? Use traction control! Don't use traction control! Admit you were flooring it??? Like a car cant lose transaction with any less than full throttle in the rain?

 

[Norm Peterson]

Again as I said, nannies are good because you are not driving on a race track with grip that is about the same everywhere. In real world, you can be rolling on the throttle half way though a corner an oil patch throw your car into a wild spin. There is nothing you can do but the nannies can save you because ESP can apply brakes individually and you can't.

If it's an oil patch you hit, nothing short of a JATO bottle is going to be much good - there just isn't enough grip available to do much of anything with. I understand how ESC works, and it can't be just blind luck keeping me from spinning on the street all these years.

Although you had no way of knowing it, I've actually been through such an experience with oil. Street situation at an intersection and involving all four tires. I've also hit coolant in a 1g corner and again at close to WOT in 3rd gear on the track (found out later what it was).

[ame]


Norm

 

[HISSMAN]

All I know is. If I was the OP I'd be beating my head against a wall right now. The advice in this thread is all over the map. Learn to drive. Buy tires. Go to driving school. My car does great in the rain and snow. Don't know why everyone say that?? Use traction control! Don't use traction control! Admit you were flooring it??? Like a car cant lose transaction with any less than full throttle in the rain?

All good advice.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

All good advice.

Ok so which one does he follow? Traction control? No traction control? Blow money on driving school? Did you go to driving school? I didn't. Not all advice is good!

 

[Chameleon]

My head is about to explode. There are much better options than the pirelli's.

 

[jasonstang]

If it's an oil patch you hit, nothing short of a JATO bottle is going to be much good - there just isn't enough grip available to do much of anything with. I understand how ESC works, and it can't be just blind luck keeping me from spinning on the street all these years.

Although you had no way of knowing it, I've actually been through such an experience with oil. Street situation at an intersection and involving all four tires. I've also hit coolant in a 1g corner and again at close to WOT in 3rd gear on the track (found out later what it was).




Norm

Your hand position on the steering wheel makes me nervous.

 

[Maggneto]

At 8k and the pirelli tires on the rear are nearly bald. Add in wet pavement, cold tires and 50 degree temps and my car is sideways at the touch of the throttle. I think a couple of GTs have gotten totalled due to cold tires and wet pavement on M6G.

 

[HISSMAN]

Ok so which one does he follow? Traction control? No traction control? Blow money on driving school? Did you go to driving school? I didn't. Not all advice is good!

Every situation is different. That is why we are called "driver".

 

[bluebeastsrt]

Ok so which one does he follow? Traction control? No traction control? Blow money on driving school? Did you go to driving school? I didn't. Not all advice is good!

Every situation is different. That is why we are called "driver".

Thats some deep right there. It's nonsense. But it sounded like some Nostradamus sh!t. It was like saying where every you go. There you are! Not everything typed on the interwebs is a pearl of wisdom. So going by what you just said. You should turn on the traction control. When it starts to rain sometimes. And other times turn it off when it starts to rain???. It's no wonder the Op begged out of his own thread all pissed off. :headbonk:

 

[HISSMAN]

Thats some deep right there. It's nonsense. But it sounded like some Nostradamus sh!t. It was like saying where every you go. There you are! Not everything typed on the interwebs is a pearl of wisdom. So going by what you just said. You should turn on the traction control. When it starts to rain sometimes. And other times turn it off when it starts to rain???. It's no wonder the Op begged out of his own thread all pissed off. :headbonk:

You are just looking for an argument when there is none. Enjoy.

Sponsored