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Alej
Active Member
Curious to know how so? Is it because of ABS? Or actual Stability Control? Is “track mode” enough to not mess up the brakes and other parts?
Alej
Active Member
The condescending tone here sometimes is nasty and vomit inducing.
Guys, use your nannies if you have to. Gradually turn them off (TC first, then SC) little by little while you get to know the limits of your car and current setup. If you change tires and/or suspensions put them on again, rinse and repeat.
“You would be death in the old days when there weren’t nannies”, “you shouldn’t rely on this or that”, some people have even said “you shouldn’t even have blind spot mirror sensors, a good driver knows his workaround”... well, to you all condescending majesties:
- First, cars today are like 3 times more powerful than what the cars were on your days.
- And you know what? You shouldn’t rely on mirrors altogether, “a good driver should know his environment” (hey, probably the very first prototype cars in the old days didn’t have them). Actually, a good driver shouldn’t even need engine cut off, or seatbelts (first cars didn’t have them maybe?), or rely suspensions (a good driver should know where to pass the car through), hell I’ll insert brakes here for free as a good driver should be able to judge the proper distance a car needs for stopping without tech aids.
(Rolling eyes to the back of my brain now)
Guys, use your nannies if you have to. Gradually turn them off (TC first, then SC) little by little while you get to know the limits of your car and current setup. If you change tires and/or suspensions put them on again, rinse and repeat.
“You would be death in the old days when there weren’t nannies”, “you shouldn’t rely on this or that”, some people have even said “you shouldn’t even have blind spot mirror sensors, a good driver knows his workaround”... well, to you all condescending majesties:
- First, cars today are like 3 times more powerful than what the cars were on your days.
- And you know what? You shouldn’t rely on mirrors altogether, “a good driver should know his environment” (hey, probably the very first prototype cars in the old days didn’t have them). Actually, a good driver shouldn’t even need engine cut off, or seatbelts (first cars didn’t have them maybe?), or rely suspensions (a good driver should know where to pass the car through), hell I’ll insert brakes here for free as a good driver should be able to judge the proper distance a car needs for stopping without tech aids.
(Rolling eyes to the back of my brain now)
Alej
Active Member
The condescending tone here sometimes is nasty and vomit inducing.
Guys, use your nannies if you have to. Gradually turn them off (TC first, then SC) little by little while you get to know the limits of your car and current setup. If you change tires and/or suspensions put them on again, rinse and repeat.
“You would be death in the old days when there weren’t nannies”, “you shouldn’t rely on this or that”, some people have even said “you shouldn’t even have blind spot mirror sensors, a good driver knows his workaround”... well, to you all condescending majesties:
- First, cars today are like 3 times more powerful than what the cars were on your days.
- And you know what? You shouldn’t rely on mirrors altogether, “a good driver should know his environment” (hey, probably the very first prototype cars in the old days didn’t have them). Actually, a good driver shouldn’t even need engine cut off, or seatbelts (first cars didn’t have them maybe?), or rely suspensions (a good driver should know where to pass the car through), hell I’ll insert brakes here for free as a good driver should be able to judge the proper distance a car needs for stopping without tech aids.
(Rolling eyes to the back of my brain now)
Guys, use your nannies if you have to. Gradually turn them off (TC first, then SC) little by little while you get to know the limits of your car and current setup. If you change tires and/or suspensions put them on again, rinse and repeat.
“You would be death in the old days when there weren’t nannies”, “you shouldn’t rely on this or that”, some people have even said “you shouldn’t even have blind spot mirror sensors, a good driver knows his workaround”... well, to you all condescending majesties:
- First, cars today are like 3 times more powerful than what the cars were on your days.
- And you know what? You shouldn’t rely on mirrors altogether, “a good driver should know his environment” (hey, probably the very first prototype cars in the old days didn’t have them). Actually, a good driver shouldn’t even need engine cut off, or seatbelts (first cars didn’t have them maybe?), or rely suspensions (a good driver should know where to pass the car through), hell I’ll insert brakes here for free as a good driver should be able to judge the proper distance a car needs for stopping without tech aids.
(Rolling eyes to the back of my brain now)
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
Just don't complain when your car's rear brake pads still exhibit faster wear. Some of us understand this either through own personal experience or that of others, and have enough understanding about those systems to not be asking questions like this ↓↓↓
Keep in mind that every car's owner manual also tells you to not rely on these systems. And yes, any attitude of "my car must be capable of keeping me from harm when I won't do that for myself" really could have got you killed driving your 1st gen Mustang.
It's one thing to have these systems quietly in the background just in case something happens that's outside the driver's skill set to manage. Quite a different thing for that driver to drive with the idea that they are his guaranteed protectors no matter what. It's a mental attitude thing, separate from the idea that none of these systems will always get it right. Some of us, with apparently more experience than yourself
All of these warning sensors bring distractions all their own to the job of driving. If they distract you from your phone or other not-driving distraction, OK. If they distract you from the rest of your driving, maybe not.
It appears you've been brainwashed about "safety" to the point where you're unable to see the weaknesses in any of these systems. But since they're man-made, they do have weaknesses.
If you can't deal with cars that are 3 times more powerful than cars were "back in my day", you shouldn't be driving them. If you have that much harder of a time driving a 450 HP car safely and sanely on the street than a 150 HP econobox, you aren't ready to drive that 450 HP car.
You're not entitled to something like that unless you can demonstrate that you'll use all that extra power responsibly (responsibility - what a concept!). It really is that simple. But people today don't want the responsibility that comes with driving cars capable of performance levels that would involve much greater risk if used.
Rants like that destroy any credibility that you might have had. That and bandying the 'condescending' label around. Good job, Alej.
Norm
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Alej
Active Member
Hey man, ok, way over and took it maybe too personal.
“Rely” was the wrong word of choice. It’s a safety net, and it’s actually irresponsible to dive in first time with all of them off. Would rather use a bit of brakes than find myself in an awry situation... especially when learning. No, I’m not complaining about brakes fading sooner. When a kid learns to drive a bike he will have maybe the small side wheels, then the parent behind him giving him support.
The HPDE instructors over here specifically ask me to not turn things off especially when they don’t know me and little by little work our way up. I’ll follow their advice, all the more so since it’s their life in my hands for a moment.
On a helpful note, other guys have pointed out that the brakes are actually used to straighten the car (and I got there by asking you see? either other threads, forums, face by face by more knowledgeable people, and let’s throw google in there too... happy that their reply wasn’t “we know enough to not have to ask those questions... so go away”). And that Traction Control, ECS actually uses the same underlying system as the ABS (I didn’t know that). Engineering Explained and Jalopnik https://jalopnik.com/this-is-how-abs-esc-and-traction-control-work-513807036 has this covered.
But check, it was not my intention to argue, just a burst that came out all wrong after reading so many forums, threads and walls of text of unhelpful phrases.
Being new here, with a very low bank account (judging from what others say I should have... as this is an expensive sport) I actually do have no credibility at all, I’ll give you that. So cool, I said nothing, you said it all.
“Rely” was the wrong word of choice. It’s a safety net, and it’s actually irresponsible to dive in first time with all of them off. Would rather use a bit of brakes than find myself in an awry situation... especially when learning. No, I’m not complaining about brakes fading sooner. When a kid learns to drive a bike he will have maybe the small side wheels, then the parent behind him giving him support.
The HPDE instructors over here specifically ask me to not turn things off especially when they don’t know me and little by little work our way up. I’ll follow their advice, all the more so since it’s their life in my hands for a moment.
On a helpful note, other guys have pointed out that the brakes are actually used to straighten the car (and I got there by asking you see? either other threads, forums, face by face by more knowledgeable people, and let’s throw google in there too... happy that their reply wasn’t “we know enough to not have to ask those questions... so go away”). And that Traction Control, ECS actually uses the same underlying system as the ABS (I didn’t know that). Engineering Explained and Jalopnik https://jalopnik.com/this-is-how-abs-esc-and-traction-control-work-513807036 has this covered.
But check, it was not my intention to argue, just a burst that came out all wrong after reading so many forums, threads and walls of text of unhelpful phrases.
Being new here, with a very low bank account (judging from what others say I should have... as this is an expensive sport) I actually do have no credibility at all, I’ll give you that. So cool, I said nothing, you said it all.
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
Much better.
Not intended to be argumentative, but I think that's the way it's seen through today's mindset. Which is a somewhat different mindset/level of risk tolerance that was in place 50 years ago when I had only a handful of years driving experience.
The kid on his first bicycle is a good analogy. I've used it myself in various forms on both sides of discussions like this one. I'm betting that most HPDE organizations request that of all of their novices - assuming that they don't ask for stability control or whatever to be left on in a car that doesn't have those systems in the first place (my '08 GT does not have AdvanceTrak).
Point taken. Wish that had been at the beginning of post #93 instead of what was there. Beyond that, do pay attention to what your car does (or does not do). Learning doesn't stop at the "book-learning level" where you read something, hopefully understand it on an intellectual level, and call it done.
So maybe you can see how I might be a bit frustrated with what's probably a comparable number of posts/threads/etc. that do not value decades of safe driving experience without any of these nannies, don't understand that these nannies do have their limitations, and by implication don't grasp how people "back then" could accept both greater levels of risk and the responsibility for minimizing that risk all by themselves. I'll turn 72 later this year, and in many respects (not just automotive) I'm still OK with a 1960's or earlier level of risk tolerance, and I don't always sugar-coat my comments. First hit the big tracks at 64.
Expensive, yup. Not any cheaper when you're on fixed income either.
Norm
Kep4
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Did a launch test this morning, first time. Toggled to Drag Mode, held the TC Off toggle in the upper position for a few seconds and saw the AdvanceTrac Off warning, then rolled to the launch point. Floored it, car launched with no wheelspin that I could feel, spun a bit on the 1-2 shift with no perceptible loss of power and kept pulling hard to redline thru each gear. I'm impressed with the power and shifting! Very happy with my GT.
RBINCA
Well-Known Member
Just started having the issue of Advancetrac taking over and shutting the car down after launch at the drag strip. I don't want to lose the capability of using the line lock for my burnout. Because pulling the plug by the air box or pulling #62 fuse also kills the line lock I would like to make sure it stays off after the burnout by installing a switch inside of the cabin. Has anyone done this/ how would be the best way of doing it?
AZ18yote
Well-Known Member
Are you completely disabling AdvanceTrac though and not just traction control? Gotta make sure you're holding the switch up for at least 7-9seconds and has a different message that pops up vs traction control.
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RBINCA
Well-Known Member
Yes, completely disabling. Never had this issue for a year at the track. Have friends with same problem and they just unplug at the track. After unplugging they use their brakes for burnouts. I might have to start doing burnouts that way but rather not put the extra wear and tear on car.
Smokey613
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I would think you could simply install a switch inside mounted somewhere convenient that will break the dyno plug connection and route the wiring through the sound tube near the firewall It comes in right behind the gas pedal bracket. I had thought about doing this mod but decided I really had no need for it.
w3rkn
Well-Known Member
Please understand, that the "nannies" can be adjusted to the right amount of involvement.
There are modes that allow the mustang to step out, or hold a slight drift and not have to bring you back in. Not sure if you are aware of the modularity of it. Or how it can allow one to learn their new car in steps. Nannies are not, an all or nothing type of thing.
myblkshadow19
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my 19 but with pp i just hold the tc button a few seconds and it pops up adv trac off....
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
I really do understand that. Most of it, anyway.
Whatever level of involvement or sensitivity has been selected when such choice is available, it still represents an artificial upper limit below what the car is ultimately capable of.
I'm afraid that I've never needed to learn a new car "in steps". Self-discipline and paying attention has always been sufficient. But I guess that's not a politically-proper mindset to hold any more, and the ability to lightly dance back and forth between understeer and oversteer sans nannies through a long rainy track sweeper using only the throttle isn't a skill we're supposed to have or even know to be possible.
Norm
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