POLL: Guess MY18 Power Level!

[Shark77]

why would Ford completely redesign the Coyote and add over $1000 of equipment (DI) for a performance gain that is less than the current power packs which are already available, carb legal, and cost considerably less?

Fuel economy and ensuring the car meets upcoming CAFE requirements is the first reason. Power is important, but the investment was surely justified by fuel economy standards.

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[cosmo]

Apparently you haven't read much of this thread. Please do. Also, what risk are you referring to? Who is "themselves"? And last but not least, the question that has yet to be answered by countless people who share yout opinion, why would Ford completely redesign the Coyote and add over $1000 of equipment (DI) for a performance gain that is less than the current power packs which are already available, carb legal, and cost considerably less?

Ford warranty is "themselves". The current Coyote as you acknowledged is capable of 455+, so why didn't they release it that way to begin with? Because warranty and no need (see sales, they're doing just fine). Also, this is a Mustang GT, not an SVT model. The easy way to bolster up SVT models is to sandbag the standard models a bit.

Have you ever worked for an OEM like Ford? Every part for practically every new engine is "completely redesigned". It's a marketing trick. You add one boss to a part for the new wiring harness to attach to for the DI fuel system/wires and it's "completely redesigned" because the part number changed, regardless if the combustion element for that part changed.

This engine was "completely redesigned" to add DI for emissions level requirements (DI helps with catalyst light-off) and fuel economy. New emissions requirement are that for new engines launched from 2017+ require more and more stringent requirements. Any update to the coyote required emission improvements. https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_ca.php#leviii Note: table 7.

I was very disappointed with the stock specs of the current coyote as it's essentially a Roadrunner 1.5 and they neutered it with a bad intake manifold. I know about this new engine and I'm excited for it, it is what the current Coyote should be stock.

 

[DarkestHour]

No, it's not false. One of the big reasons Di gains power is it's always accomponied by an increase in compression. You not believing that doesn't make it less true.

And timing and better combustion

 

[moto111]

over 30% say 455

 

[Stevefreestyle]

over 30% say 455

And that means........Nothing!

 

[Kpod]

And that means........Nothing!

I believe a lot are saying 455 (including myself) due to the dash pic with the easter eggs showing in big number 4 (gear) 55 (mph). I really hope that they do more than the current camaro but if I was a betting man, I'd say 455 will be it.

I also think they may say 455 but I wouldn't be surprised to see it putting 420+ to the wheels for a real 40hp bump.

 

[Petroleum Jesus]

I give up on this thread.

 

[Dominant1]

I give up on this thread.

I dont blame you, its a thread based on guessing that which is not known..

 

[GTRacerX.]

The Thread is called Guess MY18 Power Level

Guess thats all we are doing here, so no reason to argue, fight or even get upset at anyone - because really no one knows. Its like predicting who the next Super Bowl Champs will be. Wait let me take that one back. - Its New England Patriots ... again. :first:

:frusty: :tsk:

Lets start a thread to see what year we think the Dolphins will win a Super Bowl.
:tsk:

 

[Zelek]

Guess thats all we are doing here, so no reason to argue, fight or even get upset at anyone - because really no one knows. Its like predicting who the next Super Bowl Champs will be. Wait let me take that one back. - Its New England Patriots ... again. :first:

:frusty: :tsk:

Lets start a thread to see what year we think the Dolphins will win a Super Bowl.
:tsk:

Browns.

 

[Ctease]

Ford warranty is "themselves". The current Coyote as you acknowledged is capable of 455+, so why didn't they release it that way to begin with? Because warranty and no need (see sales, they're doing just fine). Also, this is a Mustang GT, not an SVT model. The easy way to bolster up SVT models is to sandbag the standard models a bit...

...This engine was "completely redesigned" to add DI for emissions level requirements (DI helps with catalyst light-off) and fuel economy. New emissions requirement are that for new engines launched from 2017+ require more and more stringent requirements. Any update to the coyote required emission improvements. https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_ca.php#leviii Note: table 7.

I was very disappointed with the stock specs of the current coyote as it's essentially a Roadrunner 1.5 and they neutered it with a bad intake manifold. I know about this new engine and I'm excited for it, it is what the current Coyote should be stock.

'15 makes 448hp & 416tq with Ford Performance 91 octane tune. Which is +4hp & +36tq over Boss' standard 91 tune. Even with stock 87 octane tune '15 intake manifold makes more power under the curve than Boss (+20tq peak & only loses 9hp peak). '15 intake manifold is good.

Yes '15 could've been released with more hp & tq but would require 91 octane or redesign (Boss parts were already available).

GDI actually produce more Particulate Matter (PM) so table 7 is wrong one. But they do reduce CO2, increase MPG & increase power. In order to control GDI elevated PM. PFI/DI and/or particle filter in exhaust (like diesel) can be used. http://articles.sae.org/13624/

 

[cosmo]

'15 makes 448hp & 416tq with Ford Performance 91 octane tune. Which is +4hp & +36tq over Boss' standard 91 tune. Even with stock 87 octane tune '15 intake manifold makes more power under the curve than Boss (+20tq peak & only loses 9hp peak). '15 intake manifold is good.

Yes '15 could've been released with more hp & tq but would require 91 octane or redesign (Boss parts were already available).

GDI actually produce more Particulate Matter (PM) so table 7 is wrong one. But they do reduce CO2, increase MPG & increase power. In order to control GDI elevated PM. PFI/DI and/or particle filter in exhaust (like diesel) can be used. http://articles.sae.org/13624/

Looking at dyno testing results of the two manifolds, the 15 outperforms the boss until you get above ~5.7k RPM where the 15 manifold falls off where the boss keeps on trucking ([ame]). The runners on the 15 inhibit a higher redline in exchange for the lower torque. But... when you hit redline in first you shift into a less favorable position with the 15 manifold whereas the boss has a much better top end. That is why with just tires a boss can run 11s. With even better cams the new mustang should be able to do even better but it's restricted by that manifold.

Fair point about the fuel requirement though. I'd be interested in seeing how much they retard the spark for high RPM in the coyote.

I was referencing the effect in date in table 7 of that link over the PM table. I agree you get worse PM with GDI, but there's tradeoffs made which overall improve emissions. One of the worst parts of a vehicles emissions output is at start up before the catalyst lights off... GDI greatly helps with that. We'll likely be seeing particulate filters in gas engines sooner rather than later, especially in areas like Europe and China.

 

[Ctease]

Looking at dyno testing results of the two manifolds, the 15 outperforms the boss until you get above ~5.7k RPM where the 15 manifold falls off where the boss keeps on trucking (). The runners on the 15 inhibit a higher redline in exchange for the lower torque. But... when you hit redline in first you shift into a less favorable position with the 15 manifold whereas the boss has a much better top end. That is why with just tires a boss can run 11s. With even better cams the new mustang should be able to do even better but it's restricted by that manifold.

Fair point about the fuel requirement though. I'd be interested in seeing how much they retard the spark for high RPM in the coyote.

I was referencing the effect in date in table 7 of that link over the PM table. I agree you get worse PM with GDI, but there's tradeoffs made which overall improve emissions. One of the worst parts of a vehicles emissions output is at start up before the catalyst lights off... GDI greatly helps with that. We'll likely be seeing particulate filters in gas engines sooner rather than later, especially in areas like Europe and China.

It stops losing at 5.7k but doesn't start outperforming till ~6.7k. So we're looking at gains at 1,000-1,200 rpm at very top end vs losing at first 4,500-5,000 rpm. That's assuming 7,900-8,000 rpm passes their warranty beancounters. 7,500 rpm seems more reasonable; giving 800rpm only. You know because they want to protect themselves. Either way '15 intake has more power under the curve. Plus, this engine as long tube headers & tuned with no regards to emissions. Engine flows more air with long tube and can take advantage of topend. GT isn't a drag car from the factory.

There are tuning strategies in both DI & PFI to heat cats faster. But haven't seen data on no strategy vs no strategy that would say DI is better.

I don't understand what you mean by "effect in data in table 7". From my understanding all cars must be certified into a LEV3 category. Then fleet goals are based on category and sales. To reduce PM govt wants 20% of cars to meet "3" on top of their regular category breakdown, ex "10". That way manufactures can make some cars pollute regular about of CO2 but less PM and reach their PM quota. And other cars can meet low CO2 quota but pollute regular in PM. As opposed to every car meeting strict goals in both CO2 & PM. It spreads the total pollution around and averages it out. DI would more likely keep GT out of the 20% quota. Of course, I'm sure the DI/FPI and tuning strategies can overcome DI's problems with PM.

 

[Nanashii]

I think this will be a healthy bump given that the hybrid is coming in the next generation and the V8 will likely slot in the middle of the ecoboost and the hybrid.

 

[cosmo]

It stops losing at 5.7k but doesn't start outperforming till ~6.7k. So we're looking at gains at 1,000-1,200 rpm at very top end vs losing at first 4,500-5,000 rpm. That's assuming 7,900-8,000 rpm passes their warranty beancounters. 7,500 rpm seems more reasonable; giving 800rpm only. You know because they want to protect themselves. Either way '15 intake has more power under the curve. Plus, this engine as long tube headers & tuned with no regards to emissions. Engine flows more air with long tube and can take advantage of topend. GT isn't a drag car from the factory.

There are tuning strategies in both DI & PFI to heat cats faster. But haven't seen data on no strategy vs no strategy that would say DI is better.

I don't understand what you mean by "effect in data in table 7". From my understanding all cars must be certified into a LEV3 category. Then fleet goals are based on category and sales. To reduce PM govt wants 20% of cars to meet "3" on top of their regular category breakdown, ex "10". That way manufactures can make some cars pollute regular about of CO2 but less PM and reach their PM quota. And other cars can meet low CO2 quota but pollute regular in PM. As opposed to every car meeting strict goals in both CO2 & PM. It spreads the total pollution around and averages it out. DI would more likely keep GT out of the 20% quota. Of course, I'm sure the DI/FPI and tuning strategies can overcome DI's problems with PM.

I wish the vehicle didn't have the headers in this example, but while the '15 has more power under the total curve, pretty much everything below 4.5k RPM doesn't matter after first. First gear is traction limited anyways, so shifting the power to the top end will produce better times (as long as you don't go as far as the GT350 with the bottom end being harmful to times). With the better cams in the car, no reason that they should've designed that engine not to hit 7500 RPM with better torque and output than the Boss. The only limiting factor is that intake.

Fuel is bad for cats, DI helps total combustion of the fuel. During cold starts, a lot of fuel is dumped to get the engine and catalyst up to operating temperature. DI helps.

I was meaning that new emissions requirements are being effected in at 2017. We're currently in Tier2 going to Tier3. All cars will be certified to a Tier3 category, there are just many different bins that a vehicle meets requirements for. This involves volume mixing by the manufacturers of different models as you're saying. Petroleumjesus was asking a question on why would Ford change anything if not for more power than the current powerpacks, I was showing that the new emissions standards are driving those changes and that I highly doubt those powerpacks or the current Coyote is capable of meeting the new emissions requirements without rebinning of the vehicle (meaning they would need to compensate elsewhere with a SULEV vehicle).

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