Paris terrorist attack.

[Glenn G]

I think the disconnect we are having here is partisanship vs foreign policy, and the two debates do not align. If you don't love Obama, you're not going to approve of anything we have done. If you love Obama, you think we are doing too much, when in reality the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

When people criticized Bush I'd tell them look, the man is the leader doing what he feels is in the best interest of this country, do I agree with everything? No. But we continue to move forward. I say the same thing with Obama. If we want the thread to be nothing but a 'bash the president, give me my guns' circle jerk, have at it. When we want to talk actual foreign policy, non partisan, that looks at ISIL and terrorist threats without the political agenda.. I think we will be more enlightened but at this point that just doesn't seem viable.

I agree with you on the partisanship, looking at it objectively Iraq was a mistake (I am an Iraq vet, Still working for DoD here in Germany) What the Arab spring has shown us is when you get rid of a Strong Arm but generally secular leader, the chaos that fills the power vacuum is worse- examples- Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen and Iraq.

I've spent more time than I'd like in the middle east, and those people are not ready for democracy, There is no predominately Muslim country that is stable and free. All of the relatively stable one's are ruled by Strict Monarchies or Dictators with a brutal iron fist. Iran is a theocracy ruled by the Ayatollahs with a show president who has to be approved before and after the election. Saudi?..... yeah. Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, even Kuwait? Monarchies with secret police who take a dim view of any dissent, they just have enough oil money to pay the citizens to keep them in check. I travel to those for work alot, All of the work is done by foreign, almost slave labor, Those places are going to destabilize fast once the oil either dries up, or hopefully, we find a better source of energy.

Lets see Turkey is on the brink of a coup every few years, Malaysia and Afghanistan are a mess, Egypt Iraq, and Libya both were all better off with their dictators.

Now we want to get rid of Assad? But lets arm some rebel groups to do it and try not to get involved, because that plan worked so damn well in Afghanistan against the Russians in the 80's !:headbonk:

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[tonio]

I agree with you on the partisanship, looking at it objectively Iraq was a mistake (I am an Iraq vet, Still working for DoD here in Germany) What the Arab spring has shown us is when you get rid of a Strong Arm but generally secular leader, the chaos that fills the power vacuum is worse- examples- Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen and Iraq.

I've spent more time than I'd like in the middle east, and those people are not ready for democracy, There is no predominately Muslim country that is stable and free. All of the relatively stable one's are ruled by Strict Monarchies or Dictators with a brutal iron fist. Iran is a theocracy ruled by the Ayatollahs with a show president who has to be approved before and after the election. Saudi?..... yeah. Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, even Kuwait? Monarchies with secret police who take a dim view of any dissent, they just have enough oil money to pay the citizens to keep them in check. I travel to those for work alot, All of the work is done by foreign, almost slave labor, Those places are going to destabilize fast once the oil either dries up, or hopefully, we find a better source of energy.

Lets see Turkey is on the brink of a coup every few years, Malaysia and Afghanistan are a mess, Egypt Iraq, and Libya both were all better off with their dictators.

Now we want to get rid of Assad? But lets arm some rebel groups to do it and try not to get involved, because that plan worked so damn well in Afghanistan against the Russians in the 80's !:headbonk:

Glenn you are dead on here imo, the spread of democracy some Arab countries is a joke, and they see it the same way. In the line of work I do we would looked at Afghanistan after the surge, and what you find is that the local governments (for whatever motivation) are complicit with insurgent activity in their areas. Doesn't matter what we do to establish if we're not there to see it through, at least that is how it feels.

I think the spread of democracy lessens the chances of future conflict (Democratic nations rarely go to war with each other) but I tend to believe that goals and milestones should be realistic and attainable.. true democracy in Iraq after leaving in 2011 was way optimistic IMO, someone had to know it would fail.

Now we are on to Syria and I'm not sure what the endgame here. I'm probably sending this back down the partisan road, but it seems like an issue that will be passed on to the next president and who we elect will determine how we engage.

 

[MagneticA]

Yeah, Democracy isn't something you can just franchise out. Even in America you can see it fracturing and not truly representing everyone.

 

[z06psi]

Too bad we are a Constitutional Republic. A common liberal mis-speak.

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[z06psi]

We've had hate groups on our soil ever since we "claimed" it as our soil.

What you meant to say was. Since we conquered these lands.

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[MagneticA]

Too bad we are a Constitutional Republic. A common liberal mis-speak.

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The US is a Republic, but we practice democracy. Which means the people have the power, and that power is exercised through voting for their representatives. Then the representatives exercise that power within the rule of law.

You can have Republics without democracy, it just so happens that the US includes democracy.

When people talk about spreading democracy, they are saying they want citizens of other countries to have a voice in their own government.

 

[MagneticA]

What you meant to say was. Since we conquered these lands.

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Claim is what I meant. The early settlers asked for land. They also demanded land. Some even took it in violent manners. Many homesteaders filled out claims to the land they wanted. As time passed a government was formed and a military was built. The conquering took place then. But hate groups predated any forms of government.

 

[Khyber]

i could give a shit less about the middle east and their politics... The issue is their extremists want to mass recruit and mass kill and have threatened us almost every day last week after paris and obama's like "their contained". screw that. blow them off the damn map. the middle east has been this way for thousands of years...they aren't going to change. They have always been blood thirsty since the Persian empire. the problem is now, they have the internet and they have the money to mobilize and you ain't going to be able to stop them every time. it's going to happen here. it's only a matter of time.

 

[tonio]

i could give a shit less about the middle east and their politics... The issue is their extremists want to mass recruit and mass kill and have threatened us almost every day last week after paris and obama's like "their contained". screw that. blow them off the damn map. the middle east has been this way for thousands of years...they aren't going to change. They have always been blood thirsty since the Persian empire. the problem is now, they have the internet and they have the money to mobilize and you ain't going to be able to stop them every time. it's going to happen here. it's only a matter of time.

You say that like Christians don't have extremists.. first that come to mind are Hitler and the Klu Klux Klan. Terrorism isn't exclusive to Muslims.

Islam rejects ISIL, and ISIL targets Muslims more than any other religion, so I could say two things.. either religion itself is the problem, or extremists, either way I don't care, I just want to see the threats eliminated.

Also you say that like you hope there is an attack. If there isn't will you be disappointed you were wrong?

 

[04SloSnake]

When you look at the growing threat due to social media and the ease of radicalization, paired with the reduced government budget and hiring freezes, you would be hard pressed to say an attack inside the U.S. isn't likely. I hope it doesn't happen but it takes a whole lot of people and things to go right in order to stop a terrorist attack. One missed indicator can leave people dead.

 

[z06psi]

I just want to see the threats eliminated.

How do eliminate the threats of extremists?

Two ways.

Do something so horrific that it makes them think twice. (Think WWII against Japan)

Or wipe them out entirely.

 

[Khyber]

when was last time Christians stormed cafes and a concert screaming god is good and started throwing grenades and shooting couple hundred people and blowing themselves up?

never because people who do this crap aren't christian or muslim or any religions... their freaking wackjobs who believe in some extreme fantasy.

hitler wasn't a christian, seriously... if he was or had any understanding of god's word, he would never of had the ideas he had and did the things he ordered people to do. he was sick. it goes completely against everything in god's word.

anyone can say their anything. the difference with islam is their prophet who they feel like they can kill in the name of. that's the extremist...but they aren't real muslims either... their lunatics with extreme fantasies of what islam can be. the fact is world wide terrorism right now is a muslim thing.

in the end we have to do what we have to do to protect the american people and our leader could give two craps less about that...he just wants all these people to come in, have us pay for it because they go on immediate wellfare...crushing the middle class even more.

we can't even take care of our homeless vets or our vets and we're just gonna let people walk in! Thank god we had governors with half a brain tell obama to piss off. At least 7 years later we're finally seeing our government stop just letting everything happen and dems and repubs at least agreeing on this issue...at least their trying to postpone it for a better solution and not just "here welcome to the us, here's a check, we hope you aren't isis!"

america has got to get her backbone back.

 

[Rough Hollow Man]

I'm starting to get a very good feeling about everything that Khyber/Landon is saying...I know there are millions of young adults in America that stand for the same fundamental values that Landon does. They, like I, have had enough of our mamsy-pansy, mealy-mouthed, PC spouting BS media obsessed politicians and public figures. I wish I could buy Landon and all our Vets on this Forum some beers.

 

[Glenn G]

Most Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims. People say the terrorists are misinterpreting the Koran. Having read the section saying

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

That doesn't leave alot of room for interpretation. And will continue to provoke violence as long as people are willing to live thier lives according to books written by people hearing voices that didn't know the world was round. I do include all religions in this statement, but since most of the religious violence in modern times center on Islam, it deserves special attention.

 

[04SloSnake]

I feel like people might have a different impression on the situation if you took the "religious" aspect of it. To simply speak to an organization hellbent on world domination and submission of all people who do not have the same ideology without religious connection would probably be easier for some to swallow.

The situation is worsening and the threat is real but we are too busy in our media trying to figure out what to call it. If we can't figure that out, how can we move forward to actually fixing the problem? Being in denial about the threat because we are too worried about offending someone is only going to make the problem worse.

I would like to bring it up again to everyone who says we need to bomb ISIS. How exactly is that going to work without reliable boots on the ground to tell them where to bomb? Best case scenario we hit all of our targets without collateral damage, but we won't be very effective. Worst case scenario we hit something accidentally and kill a large number of civilians. We become the enemy of the world and lose any chance we have of gaining international support. What is the best plan?

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