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sotek2345
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Gotta step it up - call it a Wolf V10!
jwt
Well-Known Member
I agree. GT is meant to mean a grand tourer, not drag strip 0-60'er
Link to some GT porn
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer#:~:text=A grand tourer (GT) is,or a 2+2 arrangement.
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- #245
I was running some numbers just to see what future V8 Mustang’s could be like, and I just really don’t think the modular platform is done yet, because there’s just SO many options for new, unexplored avenues with modern technology
I’ll put a picture of my math below, but the general gist of it is that Ford still has PLENTY of engine options to play with if they want to keep on this “sports car” path rather than diverting to a Challenger-esque philosophy. We all know horsepower=Torque x RPM (well, also divided by 9.5 or so, but who cares) and that torque generally has a correspondence to displacement.
We also know that Ford has achieved nearly the highest piston speed in a production car (just barely beaten by the Audi R8) with the Voodoo V8. But what if you were to take some of that Voodoo displacement away (by means of shortening the stroke) and added some RPMs to maintain the same piston speed for reliability’s sake but still make more power while keeping relatively similar torque?
One of these hypothetical engines I came up with (v2) does exactly that. It uses the GT350 bore diameter (3.7”) and uses a 3.55” stroke to maintain a 5.0L displacement which allows it to sustain the GT350’s piston speed at 8500RPM. Essentially, what this could mean is a V8 with somewhere in the range of the GT’s torque (or more likely more when paired with a hybrid assist motor to make up for the torque deficit) and even more horsepower than the GT350 due to the higher RPM (especially when paired with modern technology like direct injection). There is another one (v3) that drops it down to 4.0L and maintains a piston speed between the Coyote and Voodoo, and that would be capable of almost 10k RPM. It’s not totally impossible... BMW made a 9k RPM V8 in a street car with a cross plane crank, there’s no reason Ford couldn’t do it
Now, this would of course also require some work in the valvetrain department, and especially something to make the required cam profile to work, both in terms of top end power and low end streetability/fuel efficiency. But if Ford could make some advancements with its VCT system (adding in some sort of variable lift provision) that COULD make it work. But I have a better idea... Ford could buy into Koenigsegg’s FreeValve technology to be able to control lift, duration, and overlap simultaneously to fit the needs of the engine, which would not only offer improvements in power across the board, but would also improve fuel efficiency significantly (especially paired with hybrid technology)
Tl;Dr High performance gas engines, and the Ford V8 in particular, have a future as long as politics don’t get in the way. Ford just has to want it as bad as we do
I’ll put a picture of my math below, but the general gist of it is that Ford still has PLENTY of engine options to play with if they want to keep on this “sports car” path rather than diverting to a Challenger-esque philosophy. We all know horsepower=Torque x RPM (well, also divided by 9.5 or so, but who cares) and that torque generally has a correspondence to displacement.
We also know that Ford has achieved nearly the highest piston speed in a production car (just barely beaten by the Audi R8) with the Voodoo V8. But what if you were to take some of that Voodoo displacement away (by means of shortening the stroke) and added some RPMs to maintain the same piston speed for reliability’s sake but still make more power while keeping relatively similar torque?
One of these hypothetical engines I came up with (v2) does exactly that. It uses the GT350 bore diameter (3.7”) and uses a 3.55” stroke to maintain a 5.0L displacement which allows it to sustain the GT350’s piston speed at 8500RPM. Essentially, what this could mean is a V8 with somewhere in the range of the GT’s torque (or more likely more when paired with a hybrid assist motor to make up for the torque deficit) and even more horsepower than the GT350 due to the higher RPM (especially when paired with modern technology like direct injection). There is another one (v3) that drops it down to 4.0L and maintains a piston speed between the Coyote and Voodoo, and that would be capable of almost 10k RPM. It’s not totally impossible... BMW made a 9k RPM V8 in a street car with a cross plane crank, there’s no reason Ford couldn’t do it
Now, this would of course also require some work in the valvetrain department, and especially something to make the required cam profile to work, both in terms of top end power and low end streetability/fuel efficiency. But if Ford could make some advancements with its VCT system (adding in some sort of variable lift provision) that COULD make it work. But I have a better idea... Ford could buy into Koenigsegg’s FreeValve technology to be able to control lift, duration, and overlap simultaneously to fit the needs of the engine, which would not only offer improvements in power across the board, but would also improve fuel efficiency significantly (especially paired with hybrid technology)
Tl;Dr High performance gas engines, and the Ford V8 in particular, have a future as long as politics don’t get in the way. Ford just has to want it as bad as we do
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engineermike
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I still want to see the best features of the gen3 coyote, voodoo, and predator combined. 5.2 liter, 8200 rpm, low-compression, supercharged, and gdi. My napkin math says a bmep of 26.5 bar is achievable safely on pump gas, which translates to 815 ftlb and right at 1000 hp at 7500 rpm and all the parts have already been produced.
Stonehauler
Well-Known Member
just remember that mass produced engines don't always have the tight tolerances of hand built ones. Not saying it can't be done, but there is a tradeoff in warranty costs, etc that would require a substantially higher price for the vehicle to reach these theoretical numbers you are calculating on the back of your napkin. The above costs also don't take into account the need for sturdier parts throughout the engine, from the crank/connecting rods/pistons to the block, chains, gears, etc. You will also probably need a beefier transmission, drive shaft, half shafts, etc. In short, an entirely revised drivetrain. After all, you are talking about 10s of thousands of units a year, not 3k or less, all with 3 year factory warranties, and many with 5-7 year extended warranties. That means the parts you say are already produced, really aren't.
Yes, I want another V8. I would also like a bolt on supercharger option like the kind that has been available for the S550. Personally, I don't care if they continue to use the Coyote in a beefed up form or another engine as long as the performance is there. That said, I don't like the V6 or I4 because of the added vibration it gives to the car. No matter how good the balance wheel is, it's always noticeable to me vs a V8 or I6.
jdsfly
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I'm not ragging on V-8s, I like them too, but my 2.3 Eco is smoother than any of the 302 V-8s I owned and on par with the 4.6L. It sounds like a Camry though.
Stonehauler
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I've owned many V8s. 1997 T-bird 4.6, Lexus GS 430, BMW 550i (N63 engine), and BMW 330, and 340 I6, plus two Toyota I6 engines in the 85 and 88 Cressida (2.8l if I recall correctly), and even an 87 cougar with a 5.0 HO engine. Heck, even my boat has a 5.7 L in it.
I've also test driven many other models, including the Cadillac CTS 3.6, the Camaro (v6 and V8), the 2016 Mustang 5.0, and a number of other 4 cylinder engines. While many are smoother than others, then all have a bit more vibration, which is especially noticeable in the steering wheel. The only time a V8 has given me issues is when the timing isn't quite right or the engine is so big the whole dang car vibrates and shakes.
Next time you are at a red light, feel what your hands are telling you on the steering wheel. In my cars (V8, I6), I hardly feel any vibration (unless the N63 misfires again...stupid engine), but even on the best V6 and I4 engines, I can still feel the engine twitch as we wait for the green...
I've also test driven many other models, including the Cadillac CTS 3.6, the Camaro (v6 and V8), the 2016 Mustang 5.0, and a number of other 4 cylinder engines. While many are smoother than others, then all have a bit more vibration, which is especially noticeable in the steering wheel. The only time a V8 has given me issues is when the timing isn't quite right or the engine is so big the whole dang car vibrates and shakes.
Next time you are at a red light, feel what your hands are telling you on the steering wheel. In my cars (V8, I6), I hardly feel any vibration (unless the N63 misfires again...stupid engine), but even on the best V6 and I4 engines, I can still feel the engine twitch as we wait for the green...
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15ThreePoint7
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A lot of great ideas in this thread.
Now if I worked for Ford as a product planner (Unfortunately I don't), The mustang would get lighter with composite (does not automatically mean Carbon Fiber) exterior panels such as fenders, quarter panels, hood and trunklid. The S650 would use the current platform with new subframes front and rear which could allow for a small electric motor added to the rear diff or possibly a rear transaxle, and 2 small motors up front.
The 2.3L ecoboost could be refined to make more power possibly with smaller displacement or replaced with the 2.7L V6.
The entrly level V8 would be a FPC 5.0 derived from the latest gen with the variable timing tuned to give more low end torque when given more than 50% throttle.
The 6.8L would be for special editions. Alloy block, good flowing heads and a bit of an aggressive cam. while not 8000rpm friendly, 6500 is entirely achievable. A mach I, Bullitt, GT350, Boss, Cobra, or whatever special model could have a 600+ hp 6.8L. A halo model could make 8-900hp with a supercharger or electric motors. The A10 might grow to A12 and the M6 to M7 to offset the fuel consumption. Oh and I would go to Tremec to make the M7.
Oh, and the 2.7t option as the entry level engine would be a wise move as it could then open up the possibility of a 2.7t M7 Bronco, and possibly a sub GT (GTII)mid engine sports car with the 2.7t and M7. The GT would go Hybrid taking it up to 850+ and the GTII would go hybrid taking it up to about 600. If the S650 went to a transaxle, the trans could be shared with the GT and GTII.
Finally, a larger vehicle could be build to compete with the Charger, using the CD6 platform, with RWD or AWD.
But I don't work for Ford.
Now if I worked for Ford as a product planner (Unfortunately I don't), The mustang would get lighter with composite (does not automatically mean Carbon Fiber) exterior panels such as fenders, quarter panels, hood and trunklid. The S650 would use the current platform with new subframes front and rear which could allow for a small electric motor added to the rear diff or possibly a rear transaxle, and 2 small motors up front.
The 2.3L ecoboost could be refined to make more power possibly with smaller displacement or replaced with the 2.7L V6.
The entrly level V8 would be a FPC 5.0 derived from the latest gen with the variable timing tuned to give more low end torque when given more than 50% throttle.
The 6.8L would be for special editions. Alloy block, good flowing heads and a bit of an aggressive cam. while not 8000rpm friendly, 6500 is entirely achievable. A mach I, Bullitt, GT350, Boss, Cobra, or whatever special model could have a 600+ hp 6.8L. A halo model could make 8-900hp with a supercharger or electric motors. The A10 might grow to A12 and the M6 to M7 to offset the fuel consumption. Oh and I would go to Tremec to make the M7.
Oh, and the 2.7t option as the entry level engine would be a wise move as it could then open up the possibility of a 2.7t M7 Bronco, and possibly a sub GT (GTII)mid engine sports car with the 2.7t and M7. The GT would go Hybrid taking it up to 850+ and the GTII would go hybrid taking it up to about 600. If the S650 went to a transaxle, the trans could be shared with the GT and GTII.
Finally, a larger vehicle could be build to compete with the Charger, using the CD6 platform, with RWD or AWD.
But I don't work for Ford.
jdsfly
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I'd like to see a hybrid, with two electric motors in the rear and a small engine in the front, to drive the front wheels and also serve as a range extender and battery charger. I'd like it to have 50 miles of electric only range, and I'd like it to be 4 wheel drive, when selected, for performance and slippery conditions. I'd think you could have great economy and great performance, when desired. Also, keep a V-8 in the lineup. HEY FORD, whatever you do, stop trying to call a sport Ute a Mustang.
Stonehauler
Well-Known Member
No...no engine in the front for FWD. I can live with motors for AWD, but a FWD engine will only result in torque steer. I've never driven a FWD or AWD based on a FWD Ford car that didn't have torque steer, and honestly, I am not sure then can design one. One of the reasons I didn't get the SHO was that d*$ned torque steer.
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shogun32
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Just because Ford can't find their own ass doesn't mean the rest of the world is so bad at engineering... Ford just needs to outsource the 'sports' car engineering to Mazda.
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
I have my doubts that you could design a good chassis that would accommodate both of those powertrains. Just combining ICE power of two wheels with electric motor power to the other two is likely to be problematic all by itself (one end will always need to have upshift/downshift capability while the other end need never have such capability).
I'd rather see a 6.8L or some derivative (SOHC 3-valve, anybody?), as long as they could hold the weight down and keep the rpm capability up to at least 6500.
Agree on that 'E' thing.
Norm
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