Need some help guys...

[Jobodizo]

And yes, that datalog is with the engine off.

I didn’t really stop to think about it, but you’re right: the voltages corresponding to the inlet air temperature at least make sense.

I have to go get the kids ready for bed, but first thing in the morning I’ll go out there with the new log file and force the car to start.

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[ugstang17]

Interesting. So I guess what I need to do now is try and coax the car into starting while it’s reading at a ridiculous negative temperature to see whether or not the tuner sees more reasonable values. I would imagine that if the tuner shows the correct inlet air temperatures that would be the value from which the computer is making its running decisions? If it’s only an issue with the display, why didn’t the car want to start before?

That is what we need to ascertain. Is the tune looking to the correct input for IAT? This is why I would like for you to collect data with KOEO and then collect data as the car starts. Use the manual CF4 (has more pids on it) and it can also show the tuner what is happening when the car tries to start and fails....if that happens. Also before you start the car have the LCD display gauges displaying IAT so you can see if it updates.

 

[Jobodizo]

@ugstang17 sent you the output from the datalog. It had a little bit of trouble starting, but it's also 36* and the car is covered in snow. Not to mention, the data log last night showed a battery that's going.

Very rich run start, but it's also possible that Edelbrock designed it that way, and given that I've only had problems with the readout when it's cold maybe what I was witnessing is a super "safe" start condition courtesy of a place with a warranty. AFR stayed right at 14 unless I goosed it, IAT was -2C. I had -74*F on the gauge when I started it, and the number quickly disappeared and was replaced by the 3 dots. Apparently the computer is still getting data even though the readout isn't showing anything. After it disappeared I never got it back.

I sent you the output file because I don't actually know what I'm looking for! I can read and understand the charts, just don't know how they relate to a proper run condition.

 

[ugstang17]

I was speaking to Burkey last night in a PM. He made a point that that I am tending to agree with. We both believe it may be possible that restoring to factory and then reloading the tune may resolve this issue you are seeing. You are seeing proper data on the datalog. This suggests that the data is there but the LCD display has somehow mapped itself to the wrong input. So reflashing to stock and then reloading the tune again may resolve this problem. The more things you eliminate in this process the less excuses Ebrock tech support will have to use as answers to the solution. So I would also get in touch with RDP who does these installs and ask them what they have done to resolve this if/when they have run across it if reflashing dosen't work or you prefer not to reflash again. The last thing left is to question the extrpolation of the data and how it is converted to be presented on the LCD display if the feedback from the IAT is properly mapped to everything. That would only leave to question their table or database beign used for the IAT conversion with regard to the display. We are seeing it correctly on the datalog. They should have seen this before OR your speed shop should have OR both.

At startup it would not be uncommon under cold conditions to start rich on a PD setup. It's a protection protocol. Suck in a huge amount of 10 degree air banging the throttle and lean out and you can start having issues pretty quickly. So that is part of what you are likely seeing at cold start. Also remember that the car starts in open loop and it takes several seconds for the sensors to get to operating temp so the car will then go to closed loop. So take that into consideration as well. IF it is extreme after warm up it may also be something that you can address with Edelbrock which they can see in this datalog if you have concern and they can correct. Idle and cold start are the two most critical and difficult parts of any tune. People think making the power is the hard part or drive ability is the hard part but it's not. The idle is the single most difficult process in the tune. Any tuner who tells you otherwise is full of crap and you should be looking elsewhere. Alex (formerly at VMP and now at Lund) will attest to this. Justin and Joe at VMP will attest to this. Greg banish in his book on advanced tuning makes this point. As a friend of mine who does tuning states, "I can teach a monkey to make power in about 30 minutes, but it takes talent, time, and experience....and some theory to make a tune driveable and idle correctly."

An expert with more knowledge and experience than I have may see something more in your data than I do, but everything there considering the weather conditions at the moment seem correct. Just may be a tad rich on cold start which is correctable by Edelbrock.

All of the bases have been covered here. You've done a phenomenal job for a "mostly mechanical' guy as you put it. All you can do now is take photos of what is being seen on the display and provide that along with the datalog to E brock AND the speed shop you bought from and say WTF OVER? GET ME RESOLVED!

 

[ugstang17]

BTW short term trims look okay bank to bank. Allow the car to warm up on another datalog with the IAT up to a proper temp at ilde of above 80F and ECT at 190+ and goose the throttle to 20-30% a few times and observe the AFR bank 1 and 2. Lambda 1.0 = 14.0 on your LCD display for AFR. Then send that one as well and we can have another look. Sending both of those along with the photo of the LCD display to Ebrock and the distributor may give them a better clue as to what is happening.

 

[Jobodizo]

Sounds good, thank you!

I think what must have happened here is a confounding of variables: I had a bad harness or sensor connection that caused the P0113 and then whatever is going on with the tune that causes the IAT to blackout. Once I saw the P0113 I ASSUMED that every time the gauge blacked out I was a half second away from the CEL again.

Also, I don’t mind to do it again, but I’ve been back to stock and then to edelbrock’s tune 3-4 times now. I think whatever is causing this display issue is EITHER the X4 flash/IAT display issue @Burkey mentioned (still cant find it on the forum, FYI) OR an issue with the Edelbrock tune. I base that simply in the fact that when I return to stock I get my IAT gauge back.

I’ll do a full data log later today once the snow has had a chance to melt and then send it to Edelbrock Tech Support.

 

[ugstang17]

ONE LAST THING. Due to the voltage on the battery read out of the datalog, put a battery charger on the car before you do the reflash if you choose to do so. And make sure that the full process completes. I have noticed that on the 15+ load that it can take some time for the programmer to finish claering the CEL codes portion of the tune.......especially if crank trigger relearn goes active. IT cannot clear that one and will make several attempts to but in the end after completing (it will tell you download complete as I recall) if you look at CEL's when you restart or with KOEO you will be able to clear all but that one which require you to relearn through the special options menu (relearn crank trigger) after you start the car. It may run a little rough but follow the prompts. It will hold you if ECT is not at proper temp before allowing you to complete. AFter this process is done you can scan flr CEL's again and allcodes should be gone. Don't fret about an IAT out of range. I got this as well and it clears and stays gone after a proepr reload.

Got 3 inches of snow on the ground so I am staying in short of some shoveling in a while. So much for the "big storm warning".

 

[Burkey]

Sounds good, thank you!

I think what must have happened here is a confounding of variables: I had a bad harness or sensor connection that caused the P0113 and then whatever is going on with the tune that causes the IAT to blackout. Once I saw the P0113 I ASSUMED that every time the gauge blacked out I was a half second away from the CEL again.

Also, I don’t mind to do it again, but I’ve been back to stock and then to edelbrock’s tune 3-4 times now. I think whatever is causing this display issue is EITHER the X4 flash/IAT display issue @Burkey mentioned (still cant find it on the forum, FYI) OR an issue with the Edelbrock tune. I base that simply in the fact that when I return to stock I get my IAT gauge back.

I’ll do a full data log later today once the snow has had a chance to melt and then send it to Edelbrock Tech Support.

Just for absolute clarity here:
When you flash back to stock and leave ALL of the hardware alone, what does the IAT show on the dash?

 

[Jobodizo]

@Burkey if I don't touch the hardware and revert to the stock tune (i.e. leaving the new sensor in the circuit) it reads 169*F. If I remove and put the MAF wires back, it's accurate.

 

[Jobodizo]

Also, I just sent this to Edelrock:

1. “PBD Datalog 36F ambient”

The actual ambient temperature outside for this log was 36*F (multiple points of measurement, including digital thermometer.) The car’s display for this run was reading -74*F, but the datalog showed a computer input of -3*C, or 26.6*F. This insinuates to me that the car might be seeing data that’s more accurate than what it’s presenting to me in the cluster. It is, however, 10*F off when it’s this cold outside so the curve is not representing well.

2. “iat error startup”

I replaced the battery before logging this run because it was reading ~10.8V in the previous run and was having trouble cranking with the extra rotating mass. As is normally the case, pulling battery power allows for a semi-accurate IAT reading. Actual ambient was 46*F, and the car actually read 42*F on the dash. The datalog agrees with the dash reading. I started the car immediately after battery replacement. When I did, I RECEIVED A P0113 CEL AND HAD TO STOP THE RUN EARLY. I used the x4 to clear the code and cycle the ignition. What's truly interesting here is the data file export reads 6*C and never appears to lose signal.

3. “datalog cold idle and with 1 and 2 10psi pull”

Directly after the previous run. This file had a normalish (4*F off) IAT reading on the dash. The log concurs with the dash reading. I let the car cold idle for a few minutes while I switched cars around, then I took it out for a drive. There are a few minutes of grandma-ish driving during warmup followed by a 1&2 boost pull. I couldn't get it to go to redline because with the snow from last night the traction nannies pulled power.

Also, the log files are here if anybody cares to look:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FcyyUc2i4Ukz3YkkwhiawwHtYTR98wQj?usp=sharing

 

[ugstang17]

Sorry I can't help you more. The tune is locked down and only Edelbrock can resolve it at this point. You have done all you can do and you have done well.

Do you have a closed air box on the car? That may explain the lower IAT temps I saw in the datalog file where you drone the car. The AFR on both bonks looks good. The short trims also look good. AFR is 11.0 WOT. There knock is pulling a little timing on the second WOT curve but not bad. Could be the winter fuel. A bottle of octane boost in the tank and another hit later would verify that. Timing is hard to tell because the nanny strategies are pulling timing.

The IAT seems rather stable but that may be due to a closed air box. My open air JLT suck in engine heat at idle so the IAT goes up quicker. I had hoped to receive the closed air box and stock TB and FI's from the previous owner (who lives in your town btw) but he never got back with me.

You have enough data for them to resolve this issue. It's not a deal killer but they need to step up and resolve this. RDP needs to go to bat for you as well as your front line source in the purchase. Get them in the loop as well. They can't help unless they are aware you have an issue. And distributors will be on your side to get it resolved 9-10 times if they are worth their weight. I'm sure these guys are though I am not familiar with them.

 

[Jobodizo]

Yes, it’s the stock air box with the resonator cut off and plugged. As much as I like hp numbers, I honestly won’t be able to use any more than what this kit puts out so I’m using the stocker with a k&n drop in.

The timing thing might be me opting for the 91 octane tune. Louisville gets garbage reformulated gas in the summer and I wanted to make sure to not have pinging. The tune’s for 91 but I always fill it with shell 93. This is my main form of transportation so I’m trying to be careful with it.

At this point I suppose PBD or Lund could probably fix this if it comes down to it, but...I already dropped multiple $ks with Edelbrock. I kinda want their stuff to work, lol.

And thanks @ugstang17, couldn’t have gotten this far without you!

 

[Jobodizo]

Went to drive it this morning. Didn’t have a temp reading. Car hard started. Cranked, sputtered, cranked, finally started in a plume of rich smoke. Before you ask, yes, I gave the fuel pump a chance to prime before I pushed start. Settled down and ran fine, still without temp readout. Drove it to church (with my wife following with the kids in her car ) and it ran fine. Came back out 2 hours later and it started right up and, wait for it, showed IAT. Seriously, wtf?

 

[ugstang17]

^^^ I can't wait to hear what E brock has to say about this. You drove that to church this morning? We had another 4 inches or more on the ground. I had to dig my truck out. We've got 6 inches now.

WaitI think I hear Burkey getting ready to tell us how warm he is down under! LOL!!!!! I'll bet its 25-28C down there or hotter.

 

[Jobodizo]

You drove that to church this morning? We had another 4 inches or more on the ground. I had to dig my truck out. We've got 6 inches now.

We only got about 2 inches Friday night, and most of that melted after it got up to 37 yesterday. Not that it matters...daily driver, man! I drive that thing under all conditions UNLESS it’s bad enough to cancel school and I can take my wife’s awd.

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