Mustang engines.

[Angrey]

I think we're confusing what's good for the OEM and what's good for us enthusiasts.

A big, pushrod 2V might be good for OEM, in terms of cost and output, but would be terrible for us enthusiasts.

What thrust Ford to the front of the street/mod world was the coyote's VVT. The 4V modular was okay, but it wasn't until Ford was able to wring out the best of it under all conditions that it became the hero it is now.

A 4V DOHC motor is better for boost. Period. This is why mustang numbers have largely left chevy (camaro and vette) and dodge in the dust.

The bloated, 30 year old 2V pushrod makes sense for Dodge, they need low end torque over high end lungs.

It makes NO sense for Ford (unless it's in a truck).

I'd take a 4V 5.2 liter all day over a 6.8L 2V pushrod (even Aluminum block). Why? Upside.

The 6.8 2V would be nice as a naturally aspirated monster. But it's not going to respond to boost the way that the coyote/predator/voodoo does. There's only so much you can do with 2 valves and the rev limit becomes an issue with pushrod.

There's other ways to make power besides volume. You can simply REV HIGHER, which not only makes power, but also helps give a longer powerband for shifting. (actually it's better suited for the new bazillion gear transmissions than the old tractor motors that rev to 6800 rpms).

I know everyone will drool over the extra cubes, but if it ain't coming with 4V DOHC, I'd say no thanks. Not in a mustang. In a 4400 lb dodge boat...maybe. Not in a 3800 lb car.

Unless of course they've figured out a way to rev RELIABLY to 8500 rpms.

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[troverman]

But in terms of the street/ mod world, there are massively powerful GM and Dodge V8's with superchargers or turbos. And as far as stock is concerned...it takes a heavily modified Coyote to make the Demon's 840HP and that comes with a warranty. In terms of stock...which is the vast majority of buyers...the Coyote simply cannot compete with the 6.2L Hemi or ZL1 Camaros. Now GM is working on their own flat-plane crank Corvette engine, and you can bet they have dissected multiple GT350 engines after putting them through their paces. The GM engine likely won't have the oil consumption issue and might have better fuel economy and of course more power.

 

[Angrey]

But in terms of the street/ mod world, there are massively powerful GM and Dodge V8's with superchargers or turbos. And as far as stock is concerned...it takes a heavily modified Coyote to make the Demon's 840HP and that comes with a warranty. In terms of stock...which is the vast majority of buyers...the Coyote simply cannot compete with the 6.2L Hemi or ZL1 Camaros. Now GM is working on their own flat-plane crank Corvette engine, and you can bet they have dissected multiple GT350 engines after putting them through their paces. The GM engine likely won't have the oil consumption issue and might have better fuel economy and of course more power.

The demon motor is yawnworthy. 840 hp out of a blown 376 cube, pushrod motor on race fuel. Welcome to 1995. The thing weighs a metric ton, revs like a tractor and has much less upside. You have to do a shit ton of work on that motor to get it to similar numbers were seeing from the predator in the new 500s modified. Show me a 1200 rwhp demon that hasn't been rooted to the core to get there.

The fact is, you size a motor based upon torque loading and for pulling stumps and jerking trailers, a big, bloated motor makes sense (or for getting that fatass dodge to move).

There's a physical reason that you see smaller motors that breath and rev to the moon in everything from super and hyper cats to indy and formula one. With modern gear sets having 10+ gears, it makes even MORE sense (as gearing is there to multiply torque, the less torque you have the more multiplication is necessary).

Why do you think the internet is full of coyotes with blowers tearing up cars like camaros and dodges and vettes. It didn't used to be that way. Pushrod 2v motors just have a lower ceiling. Anything can be made fast or powerful, it's just how much effort and money you have to spend to get it there and what's the ceiling/limit.

There have been legendary "tuner" cars throughout history. The Grand National, the 2003 svt cobra, the dodge neon srt4, the mark3 and mark4 supra. The Coyote made mustangs the preferred mod car again, even over the LS and LT platforms. It's way easier to get a mustang GT into low 9s than it is a camaro or a dodge or a vette even.

In terms of value it's pretty tough to beat a coyote/predator/voodoo.

MOST of that comes from the cylinder heads. You pay for it in weight and size in the engine bay, but it breathes well, especially under boost and at high rpms.

It's just my preference but if you offered me a mustang in a 5.2 liter DOHC or a 6.8 liter pushrod, I'd take the 4V. Naturally aspirated, maybe that's a different story, but for upside and boost, the 4V is way better starting platform

 

[DrZed]

There have been legendary "tuner" cars throughout history. The Grand National, the 2003 svt cobra, the dodge neon srt4, the mark3 and mark4 supra. The Coyote made mustangs the preferred mod car again, even over the LS and LT platforms. It's way easier to get a mustang GT into low 9s than it is a camaro or a dodge or a vette even.

Good list .... I'd like to add the 4G63 and RB26DETT to this....

 

[1958cyclist]

I would as many have mentioned prior, that the any additional increases would be minimal at best in a normally aspirated iteration. We have already witnessed what a blown 5.2 variant can create. I would guess that this field has been plowed for the final time.

 

[ice445]

But in terms of the street/ mod world, there are massively powerful GM and Dodge V8's with superchargers or turbos. And as far as stock is concerned...it takes a heavily modified Coyote to make the Demon's 840HP and that comes with a warranty. In terms of stock...which is the vast majority of buyers...the Coyote simply cannot compete with the 6.2L Hemi or ZL1 Camaros. Now GM is working on their own flat-plane crank Corvette engine, and you can bet they have dissected multiple GT350 engines after putting them through their paces. The GM engine likely won't have the oil consumption issue and might have better fuel economy and of course more power.

The 6.4 is dogshit under boost and the 6.2 has a lower effective ceiling than a modern mod motor (coyote, predator, etc). With that said the way the coyote is constructed due to mod motor architecture deficiencies and tooling constraints is more of the reason it's so good under boost. Nothing really to do with the dohc aspect. The high compression ratio helps though.

Also, the voodoo is actually insane. People are making 1300+ whp with twin turbo kits. I think the oil consumption is an overblown issue from people babying the cars too much. The plasma liners are very hard and likely prone to glazing if not broken in properly. Gen 3 coyotes moved to that technology and suddenly everyone was complaining about oil use as well.

 

[ice445]

The 6.4 is really only bad under boost because it's a 5.7...

Seriously, every one of the current Hemi motors is basically a factory bore/stroke of the 5.7. The 392 is them pushing that thing to the limit of how many cubes they can (economically) get out of the block. That's why there isn't much left on the table NA, and almost no room for boost. But, with a little bottom end massaging, they turn into complete monsters. They've basically been bored as much as can be done, but they've got a bit of stroke left. Forged bottom end, stroked out to 426 CID, and an appetite for boost.

Realistically, the real limit is grip. You can't use 1000+ HP on streetable tires. Even DOT DR's give up at that level unless you're on the perfect surface. Any power you make into the 4-figures is basically vanity everywhere except a prepped strip.

True. Coyote still gets the gold star for being able to make 1000 with stock internals for more than one pass. But it is just for giggles at that point. I forget what the 6.2 is doing but I haven't seen many people over 1000whp with them. Not sure what the limits are there.

 

[EFI]

with the tweaks of the Bullitt/Mach1 getting massaged into the "standard" Coyote

There aren't really any "tweaks" on the Mach1/Bullitt engine, it's the same exact 5.0 but with the GT350 intake, throttle and manifold (aka power pack 3 or the like). It's not like the Roadrunner engine from the Boss that had different rods, cams, heads etc that eventually made it to the regular GT engine in the S550.

We're already seeing some trickle down technology from the Voodoo to the GT, so there's not much else.

 

[spaz mk will]

Related to using the Gen 3 power pack tune or Bullit/Mach1 - the power pack tune is 91+ Octane Only in order to get the nice torque bump because they can reliably use more timing. I wonder if Ford would make S650 GTs a flex tune car like so many turbos care these days, and with additional tweaks (assuming they stay at 5.0 to reduce development costs) claim 500hp/440tq on premium fuel in a Gen4 Coyote. That would be just beyond their factory and Ford racing tunes now and cheaper than moving to a “new” 5.2 motor. Then de-rate on lower octane because I can’t imagine them making a factory GT that required premium fuel all the time. That would be a cost conscious development choice while still delivering an improvement, though I’m sure they’re facing a lot of constraints to get to 500.

That said, moving to a 5.2 N/A would be an easier route to 500/440 or maybe more but would absolutely cost them $$$ to develop and certify, as well as break some amount of parts commonality with previous coyotes. The extra size would likely push them into needing cylinder deactivation as well, as I assume s650 will be as heavy or more; they’re not getting free fuel economy that way. But maybe if the costs have been amortized enough by the predator motor, we could see it. Would be a nice bump for enthusiasts moving to s650 and as a send off to small-ish displacement V8s it would be cool to see. In either case, I’ll be hoping for an even higher redline than the current 7400 on my gen3.

 

[troverman]

All you people criticizing the 6.2L Hemi...still need to consider the fact that it produces more horsepower with a warranty than anything from Ford, including the supercharged 5.2L engine. Yes, the Challenger / Charger is bloated, although they still look good. But that engine is impressive. And you guys keep constantly talking about "modded" Coyote engines to compete. The Dodge has a stock engine. My company is a supplier to the Tier Supplier for the plasma transfer cylinder bores. It was a clever way to increase displacement (and power) while losing weight.

Believe me, I love the Mustang...that's why I have one and not a Dodge or Camaro. (Well, I'd like a Dodge in addition to the Mustang, but no real interest in a Camaro, impressive as they can be).

 

[Angrey]

All you people criticizing the 6.2L Hemi...still need to consider the fact that it produces more horsepower with a warranty than anything from Ford, including the supercharged 5.2L engine. Yes, the Challenger / Charger is bloated, although they still look good. But that engine is impressive. And you guys keep constantly talking about "modded" Coyote engines to compete. The Dodge has a stock engine. My company is a supplier to the Tier Supplier for the plasma transfer cylinder bores. It was a clever way to increase displacement (and power) while losing weight.

Believe me, I love the Mustang...that's why I have one and not a Dodge or Camaro. (Well, I'd like a Dodge in addition to the Mustang, but no real interest in a Camaro, impressive as they can be).

The 6.2 is a parts bin cheap out. Dodge was late to the party (after Ford did the 2005 throwback, which was after the Tbird throwback). Dodge discovered they didn't have to invest a dime in r/d and could sell decades old tech and people would still buy it. No IRS, no carbon fiber, no new engine tech. Just slap together a big motor on a throwback muscle body and it sells. Dodge is laughing all the way to the bank.

Everyone is talking about mods because comparing a motor with a blower on jt (factory or not) is an unfair comparison. Dodges bigger liability is weight. In natural aspirated versions the car is a dog (compared to the DOHC of the mustang). But they know that most people who buy dodges aren't hardcore. They see a big number and it sells. They don't advertise the 2.5 ton weight that goes with it.

The blown predator in the 500 makes more power and yes, has a warranty. You can get a Roush blower with a warranty and it still beats the 6.2. The 6.2 only eclipses once race fuel is thrown into the mix.

Pushrods are great because they're cheap.

It's as if someone said "hey, slap together a car with big power numbers and do it with all existing products and keep the cost as low as possible. We don't car about weight or braking or turning or any other performance than a big hp #." And I can't blame them, it sells.

 

[ice445]

All you people criticizing the 6.2L Hemi...still need to consider the fact that it produces more horsepower with a warranty than anything from Ford, including the supercharged 5.2L engine. Yes, the Challenger / Charger is bloated, although they still look good. But that engine is impressive. And you guys keep constantly talking about "modded" Coyote engines to compete. The Dodge has a stock engine. My company is a supplier to the Tier Supplier for the plasma transfer cylinder bores. It was a clever way to increase displacement (and power) while losing weight.

Believe me, I love the Mustang...that's why I have one and not a Dodge or Camaro. (Well, I'd like a Dodge in addition to the Mustang, but no real interest in a Camaro, impressive as they can be).

I'm not criticizing the 6.2, lol. It's awesome. It started the horsepower wars of this age, it sounds good, and it's cool. With that said, I don't really think the 840HP that the Demon makes really counts other than on the spec sheet, since you need to swap the ECU and switch to a really high octane fuel. So it's 50HP or so up on the GT500. Not nothing, but not huge either. It's definitely packing a lot more torque though. Don't mistake me being a massive fan boy, because I like all V8's. But I thought the point of contention was practical limits of each engine platform. I haven't seen any of the other motors from Mopar or GM click off a 7 second quarter mile pass with stock engine internals. Fastest Hellcat I could find with a built and stroked motor is in the mid 7's. Maybe it's happened and I just didn't see it though.

In reality cubes will always win if given the chance to shine, but OEM's build motors around a specific power goal and to a price point. Because of how the coyote is designed at a basic level, it eats boost like crazy, that's all I'm saying. On the street, theory doesn't really matter. A 392 is a close race for a PP GT (unless it's a slow manual lol), but a Hellcat will say bye bye.

 

[troverman]

First of all, let's talk about "weight." The difference in weight between a GT500 and a Challenger 6.2L is 343lbs. Both cars weigh over 4,000lbs, and the Dodge does not weigh "2.5 tons." The 6.2L is hardly "parts bin cheap" any more so than a GM V8 or Ford V8.

 

[Angrey]

First of all, let's talk about "weight." The difference in weight between a GT500 and a Challenger 6.2L is 343lbs. Both cars weigh over 4,000lbs, and the Dodge does not weigh "2.5 tons." The 6.2L is hardly "parts bin cheap" any more so than a GM V8 or Ford V8.

Let's talk about weight. The GT500 comes with MASSIVE front and very large rear brake calipers and rotors (weight), oil, trans and differential coolers (weight for the gear, weight for the fluids).

The 500 additional weight comes with PURPOSE. Weight is never good, but if you're getting something out of it, then it's at least understandable.

If the 500 wasn't concerned about turning and braking and running endless laps under harsh use, it could easily drop a bunch of lbs to be comparable to the dodge (at least in terms of non forward performance).

 

[17Magnetic5.0]

All you people criticizing the 6.2L Hemi...still need to consider the fact that it produces more horsepower with a warranty than anything from Ford, including the supercharged 5.2L engine. Yes, the Challenger / Charger is bloated, although they still look good. But that engine is impressive. And you guys keep constantly talking about "modded" Coyote engines to compete. The Dodge has a stock engine. My company is a supplier to the Tier Supplier for the plasma transfer cylinder bores. It was a clever way to increase displacement (and power) while losing weight.

Believe me, I love the Mustang...that's why I have one and not a Dodge or Camaro. (Well, I'd like a Dodge in addition to the Mustang, but no real interest in a Camaro, impressive as they can be).

Obviously a modded coyote is needed to compete. It’s half the price of a hellcat. So that makes sense. 30,000 goes a long way when modding a coyote and there’s dealers out there that will sell you a coyote with a supercharger and warranty that’ll be faster than a hellcat for less. And yes the 5.2 again is better than the 6.2. Both the hellcat red eye the one that has more horsepower and the gt500 start at roughly the same price with the hellcat redeye being slightly more expensive but the gt500 gives you a DCT and a platform that can actually take turns. I’m sure Ford could also squeeze more horsepower out of the 5.2 and do it reliably but why would they when they already have a huge weight advantage and their car is made for more than just straight line racing.

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