Mustang engines.

[troverman]

Let's talk about weight. The GT500 comes with MASSIVE front and very large rear brake calipers and rotors (weight), oil, trans and differential coolers (weight for the gear, weight for the fluids).

The 500 additional weight comes with PURPOSE. Weight is never good, but if you're getting something out of it, then it's at least understandable.

If the 500 wasn't concerned about turning and braking and running endless laps under harsh use, it could easily drop a bunch of lbs to be comparable to the dodge (at least in terms of non forward performance).

Hmmm....the GT500 "outbrakes" the Hellcat by TWO FEET from 70mph. Not exactly much to brag about with the massive brakes of the GT500. And the 6.2L Dodge is intercooled and includes the other coolers you mention as well.

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[Angrey]

Obviously a modded coyote is needed to compete. It’s half the price of a hellcat. So that makes sense. 30,000 goes a long way when modding a coyote and there’s dealers out there that will sell you a coyote with a supercharger and warranty that’ll be faster than a hellcat for less. And yes the 5.2 again is better than the 6.2. Both the hellcat red eye the one that has more horsepower and the gt500 start at roughly the same price with the hellcat redeye being slightly more expensive but the gt500 gives you a DCT and a platform that can actually take turns. I’m sure Ford could also squeeze more horsepower out of the 5.2 and do it reliably but why would they when they already have a huge weight advantage and their car is made for more than just straight line racing.

Don't discount the fact that said dealer car will out turn, out brake and otherwise kick the hell out of the dodge in every automotive category outside of room/comfort.

There are guys now running low 9's and threatening 8's off a GT500 platform that's less than 2 years old. And that's in a car with 16" brakes and coolers to go hard around a track for hours.

I will hand it to dodge that Ford has departed the "muscle car" category. The Dodges are the only true "muscle" cars left, so if you like that sorta throwback mentality (the styling, the big heavy motor, heavy car, low end torque) then the Dodge is right up your alley.

In terms of automotive performance (all around) and flexibility, it's tough to beat the DOHC when we have wideband and VVT.

Why is Chevrolet considering an OHC, 4V motor in the Z06 and eventually the ZR1? Because you can only take a pushrod motor so far outside of low end muscle.

 

[Angrey]

Hmmm....the GT500 "outbrakes" the Hellcat by TWO FEET from 70mph. Not exactly much to brag about with the massive brakes of the GT500. And the 6.2L Dodge is intercooled and includes the other coolers you mention as well.

Haha, now do it 100 times in a row around a track and see who has better brakes. Are you REALLY arguing the capability of the braking 500 vs Dodge?

The last gen 500 was known for being a one lap wonder. For the first lap, it was/is quite formidable, then heat soak sets in and the brakes fade and the lap times rise significantly. When people talk about breaking, they're not just referring to initial bite or one time application.

 

[troverman]

I understand the braking. I also understand the 6.2L Challengers are not track cars, but rather straight line cars. Its not that they don't handle "well" because they do, its just that they don't handle in the league of the GT350 / GT500, and maybe not even as good as a standard GT, etc. But they are indeed special cars, and I would love to park one next to my GT.

 

[Angrey]

I understand the braking. I also understand the 6.2L Challengers are not track cars, but rather straight line cars. Its not that they don't handle "well" because they do, its just that they don't handle in the league of the GT350 / GT500, and maybe not even as good as a standard GT, etc. But they are indeed special cars, and I would love to park one next to my GT.

Which is proving the point, the GT500 while it CAN go fast in a straight line, it's not ALL the car can do. It's competing with and otherwise kicking the hell out of Dodge boats that are singularly focused.

It's like a bench press competition between a 400 lb fat man and a 240 NFL linebacker. Only a fool would be impressed that the fat man somehow edges out the linebacker by 5 lbs. The fat man can't run or jump or sprint or do pullups or any other athletic activity, but he walks around at parties with his sleeves rolled up thinking he's impressive because he can bench 100% of his body weight.

 

[17Magnetic5.0]

Hmmm....the GT500 "outbrakes" the Hellcat by TWO FEET from 70mph. Not exactly much to brag about with the massive brakes of the GT500. And the 6.2L Dodge is intercooled and includes the other coolers you mention as well.

im not sure what test that was in but I did some research and saw different results. Granted this test was a track pack GT500 with lighter wheels but I wouldn’t think the regular GT500 would be that far off in braking distance to the point where the hellcat brakes in a shorter distance. Perhaps the comparison you saw was a 14 gt500 and a 15 hellcat.

 

[troverman]

Mine came from Car & Driver, and no, it was the current GT500:

 

[17Magnetic5.0]

Mine came from Car & Driver, and no, it was the current GT500:

Ah I see, once again the argument can be made that if it was the track pack which based on price would be the equivalent of the redeye wide body it would decrease braking distance but as to not further derail the conversation I’ll agree that they’re both great cars that each have their own purpose and both would put a smile on your face while driving.

 

[GreenS550]

I was so hoping Ford would put the 5.2 in the Mustang for the Mach 1. It seems as though it would have been easy. Not the Voodoo, just the engine from the GT500 but set up for NA. Seems like it would have been fairly easy. Giving the car more torque and HP. Maybe 450/510?

 

[troverman]

I was so hoping Ford would put the 5.2 in the Mustang for the Mach 1. It seems as though it would have been easy. Not the Voodoo, just the engine from the GT500 but set up for NA. Seems like it would have been fairly easy. Giving the car more torque and HP. Maybe 450/510?

So a "regular" GT already makes 460HP, and the Mach 1 as it is makes 480. So you want the Mach 1 to have less HP than a regular GT but more torque? Hate to say it, but there is no way a 5.2L cross plane is going to make 510lb-ft with natural aspiration...

EDIT...my bad, I see you did torque than HP. Sorry. I think your figures might be reasonable now.

 

[17Magnetic5.0]

Ford just throw this in there and call it a day.
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-A52XS

 

[Schwerin]

The 6.4 is really only bad under boost because it's a 5.7...

Seriously, every one of the current Hemi motors is basically a factory bore/stroke of the 5.7. The 392 is them pushing that thing to the limit of how many cubes they can (economically) get out of the block. That's why there isn't much left on the table NA, and almost no room for boost. But, with a little bottom end massaging, they turn into complete monsters. They've basically been bored as much as can be done, but they've got a bit of stroke left. Forged bottom end, stroked out to 426 CID, and an appetite for boost.

Realistically, the real limit is grip. You can't use 1000+ HP on streetable tires. Even DOT DR's give up at that level unless you're on the perfect surface. Any power you make into the 4-figures is basically vanity everywhere except a prepped strip.

So what youre saying is... start making AWD muscle cars with 305's at all corners?

 

[Angrey]

Jesus, are we really debating the braking between the 500 and the Dodge (even the HC redeye?).

One weighs significantly more, has probably 20% less swept area in the front and the same or more reduction to the rear brakes, etc.

And again, two cars can have the same or similar speed to zero stopping distance and have wildly different performing brakes. It's not JUST about initial stopping bite. For a sports car to perform it's about resistance to brake fade and repeatability.

Two cars of equal power, weight and aero, one with marginal brakes and one with excellent brakes will be SIGNIFICANTLY apart at the end of a track session, we're talking several seconds per lap, which adds up to minutes behind over the course of several laps.

The point is, the smaller, better breathing motor is BETTER for all around automotive purposes than a giant displacement motor that shines at low rpm.

That's the entire debate about this thread. Ford would be MUCH better served staying with a smaller, DOHC motor.

I personally think a big/bruising Godzilla Mach 1 would have been a badass limited variant (with muscle car styling and a throwback, big, mean, loud, muscle car feel). But that's NOT good for the entire line or all around auto performance.

 

[Schwerin]

I was so hoping Ford would put the 5.2 in the Mustang for the Mach 1. It seems as though it would have been easy. Not the Voodoo, just the engine from the GT500 but set up for NA. Seems like it would have been fairly easy. Giving the car more torque and HP. Maybe 450/510?

Same. I was hoping that alternatively the Mach1 would be their first flex tune car that would run on e85 also with a power bump on e85. Even if conservative, say 500hp/440tq. Then a Ford Performance tune could build on that for those that wanted it, 525hp/455tq for example.

 

[GreenS550]

Ford just throw this in there and call it a day.
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-A52XS

Yes! This would have been the engine!

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