More bad news for the other guys

[Benjj]

Of course you can’t speak on sales threads. You don’t know where to find them on your forum.

We’re too busy sorting through all the nurgerburger trophy’s and extra coolers to get down to such unimportant stuff like sales threads over there.

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[Benjj]

Now run back and tell blaq you did a good job.

I filed my report with him, he said you need to stop being so

 

[martinjlm]

Hell if it wasn't for the 2005 Mustang being so hugely successful there never would have been a reborn camaro or Challenger. Mustang created the pony car segment in 1964 and brought it back to life in 2005. All fact no brag.

In reality that is not true, but you would not have a way of knowing that without having the vantage point I had from the end of the Gen 4 Camaro until the launch of Gen 5. From 2001 to 2004 I led GM’s Powertrain Planning group. To grossly over-simplify things, we were responsible for planning which engines and transmissions went into which vehicles. As the Gen 4 Camaro was coming to an end, it was very clear that the F-Body platform would not meet NHTSA crash requirements or EPA fuel economy requirements.

A lot of work went into finding an architecture “home”. Sigma (Cadillac architecture) was the leading candidate but was too expensive and over-subscribed. Holden’s Zeta architecture was also considered, but the number of vehicles that could be imported from Australia was restricted, so it just didn’t make sense. Up until the final decision was made to idle Camaro and Firebird, my team worked with both the Sigma team and the Zeta team to define engine and transmission lineups and required production volumes for a next gen Camaro / Firebird. Neither team could put together a plan that had sufficient volume at a reasonable cost. So Camaro and Firebird went to sleep. Firebird never woke up. There was a GTO done off the Zeta platform. It was better suited to the import volume restriction, so check out an 04-06 GTO to get a feel for what Camaro might have been at that time.

Then from 2004 - 2007 I was responsible for working with R&D to identify new technologies to add to new vehicle programs. Mostly ADAS stuff, some telematics stuff, including the OnStar Stolen Vehicle Slowdown (one of my personal favorites). That whole time we worked across all the Product Teams and Planning Teams for all GM vehicles, including the Zeta team. It was obvious to us because of some of the technologies they were interested in that they were working on Camaro concepts. At that same time, Bob Lutz and Ed Welburn were hell-bent on bringing back Camaro. Ed pushed the designers to work on concepts. He parked his ‘67 or ‘68 SS (can’t remember which) in the design studios and told the designers to make it happen. Bob worked with Engineering and Manufacturing to get a Zeta manufacturing line installed in Canada. He was one of the key people behind getting GTO on Zeta, so doing Camaro on Zeta was a logical next step. Putting the line in Canada got around the Australia import problem. While all that was going going on, we had already caught wind of the fact that DaimlerChrysler was going to bring back the Challenger in 2007 or 2008.

 

[martinjlm]

The true enemy of any care enthusiast is the self driving car with electricity just along for the ride. Once self driving cars become safe in all driving situations, drivers licenses will be a thing of the past. The only way to drive a non selfie will be on a closed circuit. Now I don't think this will happen for awhile, but it will happen and probably within most of the posters on this forums lifetime.

It would take decades for this to happen, even if there was someone with the desire AND the power to make it happen. I attended a symposium a few weeks ago where one of the top 3 Tier I auto suppliers projected that by 2030, 70% of all vehicles sold in the US would still have ICE. Most of those would also have electric motors, as they would be either hybrid or plug-in hybrid, but they would have ICE. There would be about 30% battery electric vehicles, which would be a very aggressive growth from the roughly 3 - 4% that are sold today. The amount of ink used to discuss autonomous vehicles is grossly disproportionate to the number of vehicles that will actually be produced over the next several decades. Autonomous Vehicles are coming, for sure, but they are a long way from dominating the landscape. First they will show up as robo-taxis, replacing Uber and Lyft drivers. Then they’ll show up as small package delivery vehicles, especially for repetitive routes, where they can be effectively geo-fenced to efficiently run the same routes, over and over.

Not really sure why people get so amped up about what car is better or faster when there will always be a better faster car (until selfies then maybe just better). Heck, most of us can make many cars faster than they are from the factory, so it is sort of a moot point anyway. Enjoy what you have while you can. Also get your children in some decent cars too as they for sure will "suffer" selfies.

There is so much truth in this, although for the reasons I stated above, no need to exist in fear of autonomous cars taking over any time soon. Look at how long Tesla has been in business. And yet, electric vehicles do not dominate the landscape. Look at all the printers ink that is spilled writing about Tesla. Tesla is still less than 1% of the US auto market. Heck, even look at hybrids. Hybrids were supposed to dominate the industry. The first Prius and Insight hybrids hit ground in around 1997. Hybrids are somewhere around 5 - 7% of the US market now. Still growing, but not dominant until probably 2030 or later.

 

[Ace]

The worst thing we can do as performance car fans. Is become fan boys.

->

The problem over there is. Who ever is running sh!t. Runs it like the KGB. Say something negative about Camaro. They delete your thread at best. Or your banned! Sales threads that used to be head line news with graphs and pie charts. Remember them? They are now hidden in a rarely read section of the forum. Why hide it? Let the owners of Camaros bitch about the soft sales. Maybe offer improvement ideas. People bitch about the mods on this forum. I’ll take ours any day. Over the amount of cencership that’s gets done elsewhere.

Sorry, but I think you are getting a anti-camaro6 fanboy yourself here. Right now there is again a topic about sales in the general discussion section.
The only thing I really don't like in the Camaro forum and that was handled here way better ist that hate on a refresh. It was the same here when the refresh was revealed, but mods saw it and decided that at a certain point no hate flaming against the new model is allowed anymore. On the other forum you still can't read any 2019 model news without a lot of people throwing in how they hate the new model.
This is not about how you like the Mustang refresh, the Camaro refresh, etc, you can dislike every car you want for sure. But the toxicity in the community is really something nobody wants since these are actually cars people will buy and love in the same community.

Also just look how many people are trolling the people here with PP2 overheating problems, because they are too much into fanboyism to acknowledge that people wanted a trackready PP2 without doing afermarket mods or spending thousands of dollars on top to their brand new car.

I think it's sad to see that it's always "us vs them", no matter which muscle car forum you read. But in the end people usally switch between cars and somewhere Mustang, Camaro and Challenger are all kind of the same kind of car.

We all need that all muscle cars doing well. Chevy went all in on performance with a high selling price and less daily-driver value - And we all should worry that less people are actually looking for that. Hands down, the 2015 GT had some real issues if you wanted to drive it like a sportscar (like the ride was too soft and the crappy Pzeros were a horrible decision, you just needed some important mods to fix the car) and without the Camaro setting the bar higher Ford would have never increased all of that for the 2018 GT. Just like Chevy engineers now have to see that you get more practical value in the next Camaro (leaked pictures on the Cadillac Coupe that likely shares a platform with the Camaro 7 show that it could get hatchback trunk for more space). Competition is key for advancement.

I love how the ZL1 1LE and ZR1 turned out, it's kind of insane that they can beat some supercars on the track but still are affordable cars. If they are pushing Ford to make the GT500 as awesome and many people here wish, we all profit from that.

If we all laugh and flame how nobody wants performance anymore and we just need good daily drivers, have in mind that future models could throw out the v8 for ecological reasons or how Ford wants to rape the Mach 1 nametag for an electric SUV with the mustang design slapped on it. I don't want a 4 door Mustang or electric vehicle with virtual V8 sounds coming out of the speakers.

On a sidenote: According to Al Oppenheiser, chef engineer of the Camaro, the V8 is doing great in terms of sales. The biggest problem for them are the four cylinder models, that's where the Mustang really shines. And I totally get that you don't care that much about performane on the lower model but actually look for more practical value.

 

[Twin Turbo]

In reality that is not true, but you would not have a way of knowing that without having the vantage point I had from the end of the Gen 4 Camaro until the launch of Gen 5. From 2001 to 2004 I led GM’s Powertrain Planning group

That's really interesting information, thank you for sharing.

As for the Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO, that car is still one that I remember fondly. It was sold here in the UK (in tiny numbers) as the Vauxhall Monaro....effectively all Holden bar the badges. It was the car I was intent of buying in VXR guise. It did everything I wanted, albeit the styling was slightly bland (the VXR add-ons gave it a little more aggression though) and, importantly for me, at least I though so, was that it came in RHD and was sold officially in the UK. I'd admired Mustangs from afar, but the LHD put my off (I live in England). However, a few Mustang owners told me to give it a go and I fell in love with a grey import S197 and haven't looked back. But, I always smile when a see a Monaro on the road here. For me, there can never be enough pony/muscle cars on the road, whatever brand they may be, although I'll always be loyal to the original pony car.

 

[Twin Turbo]

Just like Chevy engineers now have to see that you get more practical value in the next Camaro (leaked pictures on the Cadillac Coupe that likely shares a platform with the Camaro 7 show that it could get hatchback trunk for more space). Competition is key for advancement.

Thanks for posting this, Ace! I remember seeing this when the story first broke. My goodness, this thing has the potential to be very desirable......and if it shares a platform with the 7th Gen Camaro, all the better. Why? It might just spur Ford.....well, Lincoln, into investing in a competitor. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Ford spun a RWD Lincoln coupe off the 7th Gen Mustang platform? Without taking the thread off-topic, Lincoln are now designing and building some very desirable SUVs, and a halo-coupe would be great for the brand.

In the meantime, Cadillac, please build this and don't let it be just another stunning concept.....

 

[Ace]

I remember this Lincoln Coupe rendering based on a S550, which was pretty awesome.
To the Cadillac Coupe, I totally see Camaros sideline in this, but with way bigger side and rearwindows. So my guess is that Chevy is adding more visibility to the 7th Gen Camaro and trunkspace according to this leaked concept.

But at least be happy that you will have a bright future of new muscle cars in the usa. Camaro is currently on hold in europe thanks to new emission laws and Mustang is limiting their sales in the upcoming years too to bypass huge financial penalties for not reaching EU fleet fuel economy targets...

 

[martinjlm]

I won’t copy it here, but if you skipped Ace’s post #35, please go back and read it. Awesome.

 

[5-OH]

The true enemy of any care enthusiast is the self driving car with electricity just along for the ride. Once self driving cars become safe in all driving situations, drivers licenses will be a thing of the past. The only way to drive a non selfie will be on a closed circuit. Now I don't think this will happen for awhile, but it will happen and probably within most of the posters on this forums lifetime. Not really sure why people get so amped up about what car is better or faster when there will always be a better faster car (until selfies then maybe just better). Heck, most of us can make many cars faster than they are from the factory, so it is sort of a moot point anyway. Enjoy what you have while you can. Also get your children in some decent cars too as they for sure will "suffer" selfies.

What will happen with all of these multi million dollar insurance companies, accident attorneys and driving schools? Plus when we have truly autonomous cars will you be able to go out drink all night then have your car drive you home. IMHO if we ever have such thing as autonomous cars life will be ruined for car guys.

 

[IronG]

It would take decades for this to happen, even if there was someone with the desire AND the power to make it happen. I attended a symposium a few weeks ago where one of the top 3 Tier I auto suppliers projected that by 2030, 70% of all vehicles sold in the US would still have ICE. Most of those would also have electric motors, as they would be either hybrid or plug-in hybrid, but they would have ICE. There would be about 30% battery electric vehicles, which would be a very aggressive growth from the roughly 3 - 4% that are sold today. The amount of ink used to discuss autonomous vehicles is grossly disproportionate to the number of vehicles that will actually be produced over the next several decades. Autonomous Vehicles are coming, for sure, but they are a long way from dominating the landscape. First they will show up as robo-taxis, replacing Uber and Lyft drivers. Then they’ll show up as small package delivery vehicles, especially for repetitive routes, where they can be effectively geo-fenced to efficiently run the same routes, over and over.



There is so much truth in this, although for the reasons I stated above, no need to exist in fear of autonomous cars taking over any time soon. Look at how long Tesla has been in business. And yet, electric vehicles do not dominate the landscape. Look at all the printers ink that is spilled writing about Tesla. Tesla is still less than 1% of the US auto market. Heck, even look at hybrids. Hybrids were supposed to dominate the industry. The first Prius and Insight hybrids hit ground in around 1997. Hybrids are somewhere around 5 - 7% of the US market now. Still growing, but not dominant until probably 2030 or later.

There are only two factors that need to be overcome for selfies. One is the tech and the other cost. The tech like any other tech is moving at light speed. There is a very strong desire to get them on the road. The biggest factor is greed. There is so much money to be made with selling and then "renting" them. The cost to produce them is higher than a human driven car, but that is changing and it will accelerate. Just like the computer industry did, so will autonomous cars. I really think in the next 10 years they will work out the tech needed to make them safe and maybe another 10 to make them cheaper than human driven cars. There will be many already on the road by then. Our kids and their kids will be much less tied to wanting to own and drive a car and more open to letting them be driven around while fiddling on whatever a phone is at that point. Not sure what symposium you were at and who the manufacturer was, but they probably won't be a car manufacturer 20 years from now if they stay with their shortsighted views. Maybe they are talking that way as a strategy with their competitors to try to make them think they are not a player. Anyway time will tell and I do agree it will take a while.

 

[IronG]

What will happen with all of these multi million dollar insurance companies, accident attorneys and driving schools? Plus when we have truly autonomous cars will you be able to go out drink all night then have your car drive you home. IMHO if we ever have such thing as autonomous cars life will be ruined for car guys.

Like anything else, the insurance guys will figure out a different way to insure us. Do you really think lawyers will disappear? Driving schools will still be needed, just teaching differently. You can actually go out and drink all night now, how will autonomous cars change that? The only difference is if your car is driving autonomously when you are drunk = no DUI. I agree 100% that selfies will greatly diminish car enthusiasts, at least the way we know them today.

 

[thehunterooo]

->


Sorry, but I think you are getting a anti-camaro6 fanboy yourself here. Right now there is again a topic about sales in the general discussion section.
The only thing I really don't like in the Camaro forum and that was handled here way better ist that hate on a refresh. It was the same here when the refresh was revealed, but mods saw it and decided that at a certain point no hate flaming against the new model is allowed anymore. On the other forum you still can't read any 2019 model news without a lot of people throwing in how they hate the new model.
This is not about how you like the Mustang refresh, the Camaro refresh, etc, you can dislike every car you want for sure. But the toxicity in the community is really something nobody wants since these are actually cars people will buy and love in the same community.

Also just look how many people are trolling the people here with PP2 overheating problems, because they are too much into fanboyism to acknowledge that people wanted a trackready PP2 without doing afermarket mods or spending thousands of dollars on top to their brand new car.

I think it's sad to see that it's always "us vs them", no matter which muscle car forum you read. But in the end people usally switch between cars and somewhere Mustang, Camaro and Challenger are all kind of the same kind of car.

We all need that all muscle cars doing well. Chevy went all in on performance with a high selling price and less daily-driver value - And we all should worry that less people are actually looking for that. Hands down, the 2015 GT had some real issues if you wanted to drive it like a sportscar (like the ride was too soft and the crappy Pzeros were a horrible decision, you just needed some important mods to fix the car) and without the Camaro setting the bar higher Ford would have never increased all of that for the 2018 GT. Just like Chevy engineers now have to see that you get more practical value in the next Camaro (leaked pictures on the Cadillac Coupe that likely shares a platform with the Camaro 7 show that it could get hatchback trunk for more space). Competition is key for advancement.

I love how the ZL1 1LE and ZR1 turned out, it's kind of insane that they can beat some supercars on the track but still are affordable cars. If they are pushing Ford to make the GT500 as awesome and many people here wish, we all profit from that.

If we all laugh and flame how nobody wants performance anymore and we just need good daily drivers, have in mind that future models could throw out the v8 for ecological reasons or how Ford wants to rape the Mach 1 nametag for an electric SUV with the mustang design slapped on it. I don't want a 4 door Mustang or electric vehicle with virtual V8 sounds coming out of the speakers.

On a sidenote: According to Al Oppenheiser, chef engineer of the Camaro, the V8 is doing great in terms of sales. The biggest problem for them are the four cylinder models, that's where the Mustang really shines. And I totally get that you don't care that much about performane on the lower model but actually look for more practical value.

"No. It's NOT "too much brand loyalty" over here. Maybe you're on the wrong site. There is nothing wrong with someone being brand loyal. At least we're here and not over on that dumbass M6G site...like they seem to love coming over here. And for the record, ever since the 18 GT came out, the Mustang guys have been the ones trying to compare it to the ZL1 and Hellcat. It in no way comes even close to either of those cars. Not by a long shot. Most of us here laugh at it. The GT is SS and SRT competition IF that and at best. You got a problem with the comparison, blame it on the GT guys who think they can bang out with us."

I guess you don't read C6G at all because you are very wrong.

 

[EcoVert]

->


Sorry, but I think you are getting a anti-camaro6 fanboy yourself here. Right now there is again a topic about sales in the general discussion section.
The only thing I really don't like in the Camaro forum and that was handled here way better ist that hate on a refresh. It was the same here when the refresh was revealed, but mods saw it and decided that at a certain point no hate flaming against the new model is allowed anymore. On the other forum you still can't read any 2019 model news without a lot of people throwing in how they hate the new model.
This is not about how you like the Mustang refresh, the Camaro refresh, etc, you can dislike every car you want for sure. But the toxicity in the community is really something nobody wants since these are actually cars people will buy and love in the same community.

Also just look how many people are trolling the people here with PP2 overheating problems, because they are too much into fanboyism to acknowledge that people wanted a trackready PP2 without doing afermarket mods or spending thousands of dollars on top to their brand new car.

I think it's sad to see that it's always "us vs them", no matter which muscle car forum you read. But in the end people usally switch between cars and somewhere Mustang, Camaro and Challenger are all kind of the same kind of car.

We all need that all muscle cars doing well. Chevy went all in on performance with a high selling price and less daily-driver value - And we all should worry that less people are actually looking for that. Hands down, the 2015 GT had some real issues if you wanted to drive it like a sportscar (like the ride was too soft and the crappy Pzeros were a horrible decision, you just needed some important mods to fix the car) and without the Camaro setting the bar higher Ford would have never increased all of that for the 2018 GT. Just like Chevy engineers now have to see that you get more practical value in the next Camaro (leaked pictures on the Cadillac Coupe that likely shares a platform with the Camaro 7 show that it could get hatchback trunk for more space). Competition is key for advancement.

I love how the ZL1 1LE and ZR1 turned out, it's kind of insane that they can beat some supercars on the track but still are affordable cars. If they are pushing Ford to make the GT500 as awesome and many people here wish, we all profit from that.

If we all laugh and flame how nobody wants performance anymore and we just need good daily drivers, have in mind that future models could throw out the v8 for ecological reasons or how Ford wants to rape the Mach 1 nametag for an electric SUV with the mustang design slapped on it. I don't want a 4 door Mustang or electric vehicle with virtual V8 sounds coming out of the speakers.

On a sidenote: According to Al Oppenheiser, chef engineer of the Camaro, the V8 is doing great in terms of sales. The biggest problem for them are the four cylinder models, that's where the Mustang really shines. And I totally get that you don't care that much about performane on the lower model but actually look for more practical value.

L M F A O at this Troll

 

[66Bronc1]

I am Chevy guy and I drive two Fords- a 2018 GT and a 2017 Fiesta ST. Why, simply because they work. I had a nice 2017 Camaro RS- bought it as my "last" car- something to retire with and drive around for consulting jobs. I love the looks of the Camaro, it was my first choice. But mine gave me problems (shuddering transmission) and test driving new ones, they did not drive well. I drove the 2018 GT, loved it, traded the Camaro, bought it. It drives better, feels better, is more comfortable, way more ergonomic, better visibility. But I still prefer the looks of the Camaro. And my FIST- a perfect "fun" commuter- good handling, good performance (it's not the fastest out there) and excellent gas mileage and it's practical. Both cars have been great.

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