Lowering Springs Question

[Doctor Fishtail]

[MENTION=21434]Doctor Fishtail[/MENTION] - perhaps you should familiarize yourself more with our offerings.

We already have Handling Specific springs, which I do not need to send out for people to test because we do that in house, and cannot keep up with the demand already.

But the drop is so minimal. I have read numerous comments of guys not going with bmr for this reason. And this is my reason. Maybe go with a progressive spring to get that other 1/2" of drop. Being your springs are linear with a high spring rate is the reason you cannot give a decent drop. You would be over stressing the spring. This is why Eibach goes progressive with the Sportlines (by the way their #1 selling kit) to lower the center of gravity which in turn helps with handling. Their Pro kit is Linear and giving 1" drop. Who makes your bmr springs?

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[scott_0]

Who makes your bmr springs?

lol if I had to guess Id say, they make them themselves :shrug:

 

[BMR Tech]

This is one of the debates raging in my head currently (and I try to read every conceivable thing I can on here about/by BMR/you).

I have a '17 PP and I would like to "tighten" it up a little. I keep going back and forth between doing SP080 or doing front SP089 rear SP082 combo I see you selling. Here's the kicker, I think (THINK) I would want to run Konis as well to really achieve what I'm after.

1. Drop for visual effect is the least of my concerns - but I do think a bit of a drop looks good.
2. I don't want too much rake but I don't want "front end above rear end" visual perception.
3. I want to feel the car "plant" more and roll less in turns, and wallow and bounce less at higher speeds.
4. This is my daily driver and I don't want to get overboard with harshness or sacrifice ride quality beyond reason.

Based on all of that - and your expertise - what do you think has the best shot at achieving my desired result?

EDIT: Oh, and thanks for all the information you provide on the forums - it's incredibly valuable!

My opinion?

Stock PP Dampers
SP080 Springs
Adjustable Sway-Bars
....and something like our CB005 IRS Kit.

The rear PP Shocks do a hell of a job at controlling rear spring rates up to 800lb/in..and even a little more. The fronts, although not my cup of tea in a performance setting...are really not too bad.

The above list is such a great and simple combo. I think you would be very happy with the results.

But the drop is so minimal. I have read numerous comments of guys not going with bmr for this reason. And this is my reason. Maybe go with a progressive spring to get that other 1/2" of drop. Being your springs are linear with a high spring rate is the reason you cannot give a decent drop. You would be over stressing the spring. This is why Eibach goes progressive with the Sportlines (by the way their #1 selling kit) to lower the center of gravity which in turn helps with handling. Their Pro kit is Linear and giving 1" drop. Who makes your bmr springs?

I think you seeing people not going with our springs because of the lesser drop is primarily due to looks. Not performance. As a matter of fact, I guarantee that is the reason. We all know that lowering the CoG is a good thing...but why not talk about the RC, AS, RS, Toe Curve, Bump Curves, TA and other changes that are occurring when lowering? Your average person has no earthly idea where his CoG is, not to mention the other data points I mentioned.

The fact is....geometry is the key. For example....if you take a car with the proper geometry, you do not need as much spring rate to make it work better under heavy breaking or corner exit, etc.

I could go on, and show ride heights of some very fast road course S550's...but I do not think it would change your outlook.

As for your comment about the Linear Rate and lowered (drop) amount, that is definitely not accurate. I could change the L/H number by .50" at this very second and easily have a 740, 800, 980 lb/in spring that drops the rear 1". I don't even have to see it in person to know better, I have all the data I need right here.

As for our springs, they are wound in the US after being 100% designed and tested in house here in our Tampa FL facility. I choose not to state who makes them, however if you know who winds coils for Hotchkis...then you are getting really warm. :cheers:

PS: Eibach Pro Kit is a Progressive Rate Spring.

 

[slythetove]

My opinion?

Stock PP Dampers
SP080 Springs
Adjustable Sway-Bars
....and something like our CB005 IRS Kit.

The rear PP Shocks do a hell of a job at controlling rear spring rates up to 800lb/in..and even a little more. The fronts, although not my cup of tea in a performance setting...are really not too bad.

The above list is such a great and simple combo. I think you would be very happy with the results.

Thank you for taking the time to reply!

I haven't even considered sway bars to this point, so would you have any particular recommendations on that front? I understand the high level job and function of the sway bar, but in no way would I understand the nuances involved in choosing the correct ones.

One last question if you don't mind: For some reason I was under the impression that the rear PP shocks were the main source of the highway speed or higher bounciness in the back. Since your recommendation for my goals is to keep them, is it something that changes with the change of the rear springs and the cradle lockout? Is that why there's not a real need to replace them for my goals?

Thank you again Kelly!

 

[BMR Tech]

Thank you for taking the time to reply!

I haven't even considered sway bars to this point, so would you have any particular recommendations on that front? I understand the high level job and function of the sway bar, but in no way would I understand the nuances involved in choosing the correct ones.

One last question if you don't mind: For some reason I was under the impression that the rear PP shocks were the main source of the highway speed or higher bounciness in the back. Since your recommendation for my goals is to keep them, is it something that changes with the change of the rear springs and the cradle lockout? Is that why there's not a real need to replace them for my goals?

Thank you again Kelly!

No problem! Just doing what I get paid to do and what I love.

As for the Sway Bars. You stated that you want to tighten the car up but you want a good ride. When people tell me this, the "Soft Spring, Big Bar" combination comes to my mind. With a combo like this, you go with a spring rate on the softer side...that will behave with most all dampers, but you add wheel rate (increase roll stiffness) by using a larger diameter/stiffer sway bar. This is also a common method for weekend warriors that drive their cars during the week...and use this combination to help get the most grip. In other words, many people who daily drive their cars are not going to spend $5K+ on a full suspension with coilovers, square wheels and tires with soft rubber etc.

The bars you should acquire, well I think you cannot go wrong with any quality company. Us/BMR, Eibach, Steeda, Hellwig, and the list goes on. I do not recommend using a company that you have not heard of, just to simplify it for you. Of course, I am bias to the BMR system.

The rear shocks are not "the" cause. It is a system, and a culmination of:

Springs
Shocks
Tires
Rubber EVERYWHERE

The most common part that will usually "help" just about anything related to suspension deficiencies, is a shock with better valving.

However, that better valving will not eliminate the sloppy mounting points (that the CB005 addresses) from enabling the cradle and everything attached to it, from moving and bouncing all over the place.

As a matter of fact, I cannot even tell you how many customers have told me their "PP Bounce" was gone after our CB005.

The springs and the CB005 will definitely help put some value to the PP Monotube rear shocks. :cheers:

 

[slythetove]

No problem! Just doing what I get paid to do and what I love.

As for the Sway Bars. You stated that you want to tighten the car up but you want a good ride. When people tell me this, the "Soft Spring, Big Bar" combination comes to my mind. With a combo like this, you go with a spring rate on the softer side...that will behave with most all dampers, but you add wheel rate (increase roll stiffness) by using a larger diameter/stiffer sway bar. This is also a common method for weekend warriors that drive their cars during the week...and use this combination to help get the most grip. In other words, many people who daily drive their cars are not going to spend $5K+ on a full suspension with coilovers, square wheels and tires with soft rubber etc.

The bars you should acquire, well I think you cannot go wrong with any quality company. Us/BMR, Eibach, Steeda, Hellwig, and the list goes on. I do not recommend using a company that you have not heard of, just to simplify it for you. Of course, I am bias to the BMR system.

The rear shocks are not "the" cause. It is a system, and a culmination of:

Springs
Shocks
Tires
Rubber EVERYWHERE

The most common part that will usually "help" just about anything related to suspension deficiencies, is a shock with better valving.

However, that better valving will not eliminate the sloppy mounting points (that the CB005 addresses) from enabling the cradle and everything attached to it, from moving and bouncing all over the place.

As a matter of fact, I cannot even tell you how many customers have told me their "PP Bounce" was gone after our CB005.

The springs and the CB005 will definitely help put some value to the PP Monotube rear shocks. :cheers:

Thank you for the detailed information as usual! I realize I could take a lot of this to PMs etc but I have to believe other people on this forum are similar to me and want to learn and make informed choices.

Last question then, and feel free to tell me if I'm crazy here, but it almost sounds like I could start somewhere I never considered and just do the CB005 kit all by itself first. I wouldn't have to pull shocks/springs etc at that point so no "double install" when I get to the other stuff later.

Would the CB005 alone require an alignment, or would it be safe to do just that part and drive the car to experience the change?

 

[BMR Tech]

I always try to sway people to using the CB005.

The reason is simple. It is an awesome modification for ANYONE...and if it does not rid of the bounce, well, you still get to enjoy all of the benefits that it provides.

So yes, I think acquiring and installing the CB005 would be a very good start. If that $199 and 1 hour install does the trick, you may as well go buy a few hundred scratch offs to get your money back with the money you save. ;)

 

[slythetove]

I always try to sway people to using the CB005.

The reason is simple. It is an awesome modification for ANYONE...and if it does not rid of the bounce, well, you still get to enjoy all of the benefits that it provides.

So yes, I think acquiring and installing the CB005 would be a very good start. If that $199 and 1 hour install does the trick, you may as well go buy a few hundred scratch offs to get your money back with the money you save. ;)

:cheers:

Outstanding. Can't thank you enough for taking the time Kelly. You have a new order to Austin, TX for the CB005 I just placed!

 

[Doctor Fishtail]

I think you seeing people not going with our springs because of the lesser drop is primarily due to looks. Not performance. As a matter of fact, I guarantee that is the reason. We all know that lowering the CoG is a good thing...but why not talk about the RC, AS, RS, Toe Curve, Bump Curves, TA and other changes that are occurring when lowering? Your average person has no earthly idea where his CoG is, not to mention the other data points I mentioned.

The fact is....geometry is the key. For example....if you take a car with the proper geometry, you do not need as much spring rate to make it work better under heavy breaking or corner exit, etc.

I could go on, and show ride heights of some very fast road course S550's...but I do not think it would change your outlook.

As for your comment about the Linear Rate and lowered (drop) amount, that is definitely not accurate. I could change the L/H number by .50" at this very second and easily have a 740, 800, 980 lb/in spring that drops the rear 1". I don't even have to see it in person to know better, I have all the data I need right here.

As for our springs, they are wound in the US after being 100% designed and tested in house here in our Tampa FL facility. I choose not to state who makes them, however if you know who winds coils for Hotchkis...then you are getting really warm. :cheers:

PS: Eibach Pro Kit is a Progressive Rate Spring.

Let me say that couple months ago while checking out a spring swap and talking with a Eibach engineer the BMR springs came into the conversation about the little drop that you guys offer and he explained that with your high spring rate you would be over stressing the springs as I explained earlier if you were to offer a lower drop. So again I will be a test mule for BMR if and when you guys decide to offer a handling spring with at least a 1" drop. And one more thing. Call this # and ask for tech support 800-507-2338 this is Eibach support and they can give you the details for their springs for 2015-2016 Mustangs. The Pro Kit IS LINEAR fronts as well as rears. The Sportlines are progressive.

 

[RoushStang]

The car rides awesome. I am on stock shocks / struts. I cut the small bump out of the factory bump stop in the fronts. It almost feels stock but handles better and sits lower.

I have Konica yellow adjustable in my blue car and loved them, this car might get them as well.

 

[SK GT]

I went with 89 fronts and performance rears because I want a more level stance. I have progressives on the car now and personally do not care for them.

I will be pairing the BMR springs up with some gently used FRPP track pack shocks and struts(courtesy of a forum member) which should offer a pretty good improvement over my stock non PP setup. The CB005 will also be installed along with some boomba racing vertical links. FRPP sway bars will come later just due to pricing and what I do with the car.

Looking forward to the new setup being installed. It should be soon.

Also,

http://eibach.com/america/en/eibach-news/ford-mustang-2015-plus-pro-kit

shows them as progressives.

 

[BMR Tech]

Let me say that couple months ago while checking out a spring swap and talking with a Eibach engineer the BMR springs came into the conversation about the little drop that you guys offer and he explained that with your high spring rate you would be over stressing the springs as I explained earlier if you were to offer a lower drop. So again I will be a test mule for BMR if and when you guys decide to offer a handling spring with at least a 1" drop. And one more thing. Call this # and ask for tech support 800-507-2338 this is Eibach support and they can give you the details for their springs for 2015-2016 Mustangs. The Pro Kit IS LINEAR fronts as well as rears. The Sportlines are progressive.

I spoke to Michael, who says he designed the springs. He clarified that they are indeed Linear.

However, their rates are based on the suspension system, and this kit will indeed have a Progressive rate when used with their bump stops.

http://eibach.com/america/en/eibach-news/ford-mustang-2015-plus-pro-kit

So they will use the bump stop to provide a progressive rate.

Interesting info that I actually brought up to clarify, and that I find interesting, is that the Sportline Kit actually sits lower....but uses the same bump stops. I found that interesting. I have their Bump Stops in my hand as I type this, and they are a really nice design.

As for the other part of the discussion, I am done discussing it honestly. We have no desire at this current time to make a new spring based on what you specifically want. I will let you believe as you wish. :cheers:

 

[BMR Tech]

I went with 89 fronts and performance rears because I want a more level stance. I have progressives on the car now and personally do not care for them.

I will be pairing the BMR springs up with some gently used FRPP track pack shocks and struts(courtesy of a forum member) which should offer a pretty good improvement over my stock non PP setup. The CB005 will also be installed along with some boomba racing vertical links. FRPP sway bars will come later just due to pricing and what I do with the car.

Looking forward to the new setup being installed. It should be soon.

Also,

http://eibach.com/america/en/eibach-news/ford-mustang-2015-plus-pro-kit

shows them as progressives.

 

[BMR Tech]

Let me say that couple months ago while checking out a spring swap and talking with a Eibach engineer the BMR springs came into the conversation about the little drop that you guys offer and he explained that with your high spring rate you would be over stressing the springs as I explained earlier if you were to offer a lower drop.

As an FYI, so you are aware....I would like for you to know that the .50" drop that we finalized was done before we even had our Handling spring rates set in stone. I just want to throw that out there. I feel as if you may think we chose .50" due to rates....but that is 100% not the case.

Our SP082 and SP088 rear springs which are both .50" are 740lb/in and 800lb/in.

 

[Doctor Fishtail]

I spoke to Michael, who says he designed the springs. He clarified that they are indeed Linear.

However, their rates are based on the suspension system, and this kit will indeed have a Progressive rate when used with their bump stops.

http://eibach.com/america/en/eibach-news/ford-mustang-2015-plus-pro-kit

So they will use the bump stop to provide a progressive rate.

Interesting info that I actually brought up to clarify, and that I find interesting, is that the Sportline Kit actually sits lower....but uses the same bump stops. I found that interesting. I have their Bump Stops in my hand as I type this, and they are a really nice design.

As for the other part of the discussion, I am done discussing it honestly. We have no desire at this current time to make a new spring based on what you specifically want. I will let you believe as you wish. :cheers:

Glad you see that they are linears. Didn't want ya to think I was blowing smoke up your ***. The Eibachs are also made here in USA for the past 60+ years. The biggest aftermarket spring maker.

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