Kenne Bell and Whipple debate thread (technical)

[Mike@KenneBell]

Interesting, I knew about tuner kits, not production complete kits. Good to know. Didn't know Lund was tuning them.

No questions the cam control is great, we all use to our advantage.

Lund only tunes for the higher boost or long tube cars. All other stock 2015 cars are tuned in house by our own calibrator Ken Christley.

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[Travis@boostworks]

As you all know I have a Whipple but I do have a couple of questions about the KB that I don't recall reading.

1. Does this kit, being rear fed, require the upper K brace to be removed or cut?

2. I noticed you mentioned the MMR oil pump gear and timing chains in your parts list. Are you saying these need to be installed for this kit? I'm just curious because this would add a substantial increase in installation cost.

Thanks,

Jaime

1. Yes, it does. However, we are working on a bolt-in replacement that's stronger than stock, and will clear the inlet. Although, I will say that removing this brace has not shown itself to be a problem.

2. We're saying that they're very highly recommended at power levels above 600whp or so. The higher you go, the more of a liability it becomes. So, if we stamp our approval on a system, and say that it's reliable at 850hp, then it will come with a billet oil pump and timing gear. Also, the timing gear on these new Coyote engines is weaker than the first gen Coyote. It's not a KB thing.. It's a HP thing for any system making this kind of power.

 

[Travis@boostworks]

Interesting, I knew about tuner kits, not production complete kits. Good to know. Didn't know Lund was tuning them.

No questions the cam control is great, we all use to our advantage.

They released their complete kits back in January, along with the tuner systems. KB has their own handheld device, with their in-house calibrator's tune in place.

Lund tunes for us on our packages, which use KB parts, along with some of our own. Typically, we run a little more boost, and have the option for LT's, exhaust mods, injector changes, alternate fuels, etc. But, we stock and sell both.

 

[BMR Tech]

Good thread!

 

[Super Werty]

so a good question for Whipple would be this...

in all the Dyno and real-world testing of your Whipple blower at 700 horsepower at the wheels have you ever seen a problem with the oil pump gears or timing gear? any failures at all at any power level?

 

[socalsnake]

1. Yes, it does. However, we are working on a bolt-in replacement that's stronger than stock, and will clear the inlet. Although, I will say that removing this brace has not shown itself to be a problem.

2. We're saying that they're very highly recommended at power levels above 600whp or so. The higher you go, the more of a liability it becomes. So, if we stamp our approval on a system, and say that it's reliable at 850hp, then it will come with a billet oil pump and timing gear. Also, the timing gear on these new Coyote engines is weaker than the first gen Coyote. It's not a KB thing.. It's a HP thing for any system making this kind of power.

For me, removing or cutting the OEM K-Brace is a deal breaker, no offense. It makes the Whipple or Pro-Charger options more appealing. Its great that you guys are offering an aftermarket solution for the OEM K-Brace, but my preference (heavy emphasis on my) would be to start with a system that would minimize any changes to the OEM parts.

Not trying to pick on KB as they're product looks outstanding, but when I finally choose which power adder to purchase, I'd like to select my best option according to my needs as I don't think I would swap out power adders after the install if I were unsatisfied. The more straightforward and simple the install, the more appealing it is to me. Due diligence before purchase is valuable.

 

[olaosunt]

Turbos are a pain to deal with when not factory and need to be constantly babysat. Not something "I" want to deal with on a car that is not a racecar.

.

You say that despite NEVER owning one??.

I bet Hellion would disagree with you.

I had an M90 on my 2005 .
Started with a 2.3 TVS on my 12, tried the 2.9 whipple and went back to a snake bite TVS.
I had a 2.3 TVS on my 2011 GT500.

I love the instant torque but I am tired of dealing with belt issues( and worrying about oil pump gears-my 12 has them-or sprockets-does not have them) so this time I am going the TT route .My base manual will have the on3(free )and the premium automatic will get the Hellion. Both will have 55's.

I have never had a car with an aftermarket turbo but I do have couple of cars with factory turbos(M235 and Explorer sport) which I think are a blast.

I sure hope you are wrong about the "pain and babysitting" cars with aftermarket turbos lol-
We shall see.

 

[Travis@boostworks]

so a good question for Whipple would be this...

in all the Dyno and real-world testing of your Whipple blower at 700 horsepower at the wheels have you ever seen a problem with the oil pump gears or timing gear? any failures at all at any power level?

I can show you a broken gears from S197's.. We've replaced them in cars with just about every brand of blower (Whipple included). It's not a brand thing.. it's a power thing.

 

[Travis@boostworks]

For me, removing or cutting the OEM K-Brace is a deal breaker, no offense. It makes the Whipple or Pro-Charger options more appealing. Its great that you guys are offering an aftermarket solution for the OEM K-Brace, but my preference (heavy emphasis on my) would be to start with a system that would minimize any changes to the OEM parts.

Not trying to pick on KB as they're product looks outstanding, but when I finally choose which power adder to purchase, I'd like to select my best option according to my needs as I don't think I would swap out power adders after the install if I were unsatisfied. The more straightforward and simple the install, the more appealing it is to me. Due diligence before purchase is valuable.

I respect that.. And we'll have a bolt-in brace that takes all of 10 minutes to swap out that's stronger than factory for those who want to retain a brace in that area.

 

[socalsnake]

I respect that.. And we'll have a bolt-in brace that takes all of 10 minutes to swap out that's stronger than factory for those who want to retain a brace in that area.

Good to know. Not ruling KB's awesome blowers yet. Just want to be reassured of the outcome if I have to cut or replace the K Brace.

I know when we choose to mod it is a given that you ill be changing (and hopefully improving) alot of the OEM parts. The concerns with this in general for me is maintaning OEM drivability and longevity along with minimizing the impact on the pocketbook!

 

[Jmeo]

I can show you a broken gears from S197's.. We've replaced them in cars with just about every brand of blower (Whipple included). It's not a brand thing.. it's a power thing.

I specifically asked the head mechanic and the main programmer at Tasca Ford about this. They have told me not one single customer has ever had an issue. They have built many mustangs over the years and they are a high performance shop who have been racing since the 60's so they really are great. Now, if I were tracking/dragging my car on a continuos basis I would probably just do it. I'm not saying someone shouldn't that's for sure. It's just a big job and expensive.

Hell, I am probably going to do it anyway just for piece of mind.


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[Travis@boostworks]

I specifically asked the head mechanic and the main programmer at Tasca Ford about this. They have told me not one single customer has ever had an issue. They have built many mustangs over the years and they are a high performance shop who have been racing since the 60's so they really are great. Now, if I were tracking/dragging my car on a continuos basis I would probably just do it. I'm not saying someone shouldn't that's for sure. It's just a big job and expensive.

Hell, I am probably going to do it anyway just for piece of mind.


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Broken cast oil pump gears go all the way back to the early 2 valve days. I've been in this industry for 16 years. Granted, I'm not a metallurgist, but I've seen at least 2 dozen sets of broken oil pump gears personally in that time span, from cars that were brought in broken. Turbo, blower, nitrous, high RPM N/A.. It doesn't matter. Street cars, drag cars, mile cars.. I've seen them all break. The timing gear wasn't really an issue early on, but we've seen them break with bigger cams, and higher spring rates. The S550 Coyote's timing gear is even small than the S197 Coyote.

Obviously, if someone doesn't want to change them, that's fine.. but, I won't stamp my approval on a system that we sell without at least providing the parts to the customer, and advising them to swap them in. That customer can resell them, or hang them on the wall, or do whatever with them. But, considering what a fractured pump gear or timing gear could ultimately cost you, it's a small price to pay for peace of mind in the grand scheme of things. Most customers take heed and get that parts installed (or allow us to install them).

 

[Barrel]

Yeah I swapped the OPG and timing sprocket for the peace of mind. The thought of either one letting go at 7k revs...ugh. For me it was important since my centri makes power with RPMs.

 

[Jmeo]

Anyone know how much a job like this runs? I know different place is different price but a ball park price?


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[Chargedguard5.0]

Anyone know how much a job like this runs? I know different place is different price but a ball park price?


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I'm being charged $1500 for oil pump gear and labor.

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