Keeping her clean

[P51DNA]

There's no dirt being lifted by the foam. If anything it's being loosened and softened up. Any of your non bonded contaminants are being lifted by the initial first rinse.

And I'm not suggesting leaving soap on the car to dry. I'm staying that I don't find it necessary to rise the foam off prior to the two bucket method.

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[speedaholic]

I agree that after a pressure wash pre-rinse there shouldn't be much dirt left and the foam cycle is more a precautionary step in case some was left behind more than anything. And dedicated foam cannon soap should contain surfactants that lift surface dirt (kind of like Oxyclean), but I agree that a regular media wash is the only way to clean stuck-on grime. In theory, there shouldn't be much or any embedded crap anyway if the paint was previously treated with a sealant or a coating.

I personally noticed that in a day-to-day wash cycle, foam is more efficient if spread on dry post pre-rinse as if done after, water beads make the foam slide off too quickly without having time to do its thing.

 

[Emt1581]

A quick update...

I spent a few hours watching AMMO NYC's vids. I like all the info and I'm slowly getting there with figuring out specifically what to buy. But my car is starting to suffer. After a week of rain last week and then pollen in the air it's looking pretty dirty and I'm not sure what to do in the immediate future in regard to buying time before I can get the grit guard, washboard, soaps, sealers, etc....

Any advice for a quick and dirty clean option that won't harm anything and will get the visible crap off?

Thanks

-Emt1581

 

[sharp21]

I'd take it to a car wash and pressure wash it. Just don't use the foaming brush!

You can get most of what you need at AutoZone though, or Amazon prime.

 

[Emt1581]

I'd take it to a car wash and pressure wash it. Just don't use the foaming brush!

You can get most of what you need at AutoZone though, or Amazon prime.

So just spray it off with a pressure washer...no soap?

As for products I'm ordering, the AMMO NYC exterior kit looks good. Chemical brothers has so many choices it's confusing for a novice like me.

I just want to make sure I get the best possible foundation of products at this point so that I preserve the clear coat and paint long term. Then once I'm through the initial batch of whatever I order I can better educate myself on what to use long term.

Thanks

-Emt1581

 

[sharp21]

Do it like normal. Soap, rinse, dry if you can. Don't use the wax.

All you are trying to do now is keep contaminants off until you've got the gear to do a proper job

 

[PatrickGT]

Thanks to Patrick for putting in the time to write all that. Good info.

It's probably not worth mentioning but I disagree with a few things.

Cool, no problem... let's go over them. Certainly there is more than one way to skin a cat... as well as detail a vehicle!

One, why are you rinsing the foam off the car before using the two bucket method, two why not recommend a high quality ph balanced soap with good lubricity (they're not all the same).

Ok so this is two questions.

1. I am rinsing the foam off of the vehicle because the lubricity of the soaps will bond to any *loose* dirt or dust on the surface. You are about to wash it with a mitt and with soap, so you're covered... but why not go ahead and get those nasty/larger/grit particles off of the surface before you go wiping them around?

2. I don't recommend a high quality Ph balanced soap (though, I kind of do when I say I use Meg's Gold Class, but I digress...) for this particular step because I don't want one. In fact, I often use Dawn or Chemical Guy's Citrus Shine (I think that's the stupid name) because they are specifically not Ph balanced and will strip off any old wax/sealant/etc that I don't want contaminating my polishing pads.

I don't see the issue with leaving soap on the car. I'd much rather have it on the car than our hard tap water.

Well if you have hard tap water, I wouldn't recommend leaving that on the surface either. I don't like to leave soap because it can mar rubberized coatings (around your windows) and discolor black trim far quicker than you realize, and you may not notice the damage for a few weeks. Up to you, obviously, but I would recommend fixing your hard water issue with a softener or an in-line filter to resolve all these issues.

Three, I don't agree with washing the car again after polishing. Understanding the importance of getting the polishing oils off the car before lsp, you're risking introducing swirls back into your freshly polished paint. Not with the right technique and methods right? No I still think the risk isn't worth it especially with no protection on the car.

Interesting. Like I said, there is more than one way to look at it. You want to get everything off of the car, right? There are polishing oils, and there is the dust created during the polishing process. This dust is highly abrasive, by design. If you plan to grab a MF towel and spray some IsoAlch on there, then start wiping that down.... you can't seriously tell me that is going to work better than *rinsing* off the abrasive particles and lifting any remaining contaminants with a high lubricity soap, can you?

You have to realize what you are recommending here. You don't want to introduce swirls to the paint... doing a process that you will do weekly in between your details? IDK, that seems a lot off to me... technique is everything! This is also when I will switch out my wash medium, I will break in/prime a new wash mitt for this step... specifically because I don't want anything marring the finish I've just corrected.

So... spray some IPA on a towel and wipe the oils and abrasive particles across the vehicle or rinse the abrasives off and break down the oils with a gentle soap, then IPA wipe the now clean and abrasive-free panels? Up to you, of course... but I think one makes a whole lot more sense.

This also eliminates the need to wait for the car to completely dry again. Which youll have to use towels for cause the leaf blower wont be to effeftive with no protection on the car (more risk of swirls)

I would use the sheeting method and an air compressor, which mine is filtered. If you don't have this available, the sheeting method and spot dry with some towels will work great. You are working top-down, anyway, so if there are some drips under the doors you can get those out before you are sealing up what is underneath (which is black plastic, btw, which you've already sealed with C4 if you pay attention to me and you don't care if they get drips because you can't fade C4).

You need to keep in mind, just as above... this is how you wash your car between details. You should be using proper technique every single time to avoid swirls. Every. Single. Time. Swirls are a function of bad practice, they don't just happen on their own.

.Fourth, and this is more of a question, but I've always heard to use much lower % of ipa than 50. I dilute to 11% and the stuff is still very strong. But I belive ipa or car pro eraser will remove the oils.

I use 50 because I want the strength to know that I've gotten everything I'm after on the first pass (lest we introduce marring, right?). I don't concern myself with it drying anything out because all of my trim is protected with C4 and I'm going to feed the paint immediately after anyhow. If I had untreated plastics or other concerns, I would perhaps dilute to 30% but I don't go any lower than that.

I did say you should have questions, which I think is awesome... because I did leave several details pretty vague in that post. We can do things differently and still get great results as well.

 

[sharp21]

I was going to start a new thread, but it seems relevant to the conversation. Patrick - I hope you chime in as you seem to have a handle on this, as well as experience with the Texas climate.

I've done every single wash on my car since new. Rinseless preferably, two bucket if extra dirty. Finish with Lucas Speed Wax. I've also polished her with my DA twice, followed with synthetic wax. I bought this color specifically to step up my detailing game. My technique is getting there, now I'm ready to introduce an integrated product system.



18 months in and it looks great but there are fine scratches noticeable, as well as a scuff received at airport parking.



I'm prepping now for a full re-do with a heavier cut, full polish, and finishing with either a sealant + wax or ceramic coating system. I want the paint to look amazing, with great durability and lasting protection. I'd rather do a one or two stage polish if possible.

Would you recommend a sealant / wax combo applied annually, or a ceramic style coating? I don't mind doing the full job once a year, just want the glossiest, shiniest paint possible, and I want it to stay that way. Any tips to that end or product recommendations would be appreciated!

 

[PatrickGT]

For the polish, judging by that one scratch you will need to do two stages... BUT... you only need to do the harsher compound as needed. Just in the spots where you have deeper scratches. Even here, I would start with a couple of passes with the lighter polish compound and if it doesn't do the trick, move on to the harsher compound.

For example, if using Meg's 105/205 combo you would try those deeper scratches with the 205 finishing product. If this does not do the trick, do those areas with 205 and then do the whole car in 105 including the areas you had to redo in 205. You will get paint correction and a properly even finish this way, you always want to finish the whole vehicle in the same product.

So, that said... wax vs sealant vs ceramic coating. You're getting a TON of rain since the drought broke lol, so protection is key. I don't think a natural wax will be the right product for you because of all of the environmental contaminants in the air in HOU as well as all of the rain/humidity/moisture. You're looking at monthly reapplication in a best case scenario...

For a synthetic sealant, such as BlackFire Wet Diamond or similar, those are a great product and will last probably 6 months with regular maintenance washes and then you need to start all over. These can also look overly "slick" or synthetic, since they are. Keep these products off of plastics, etc... they will discolor.

Ceramic coating: I am a *huge* fan. I applied 22PLE to my beater GTI years ago in Austin and it lasted like 2 years sitting in the sun/rain/etc all the time on a black car. I now use a combination of products:

Black plastic/rubberized trim:

CLEAN FIRST, and clean well. Get any 'protectant' you put on there completely off, wipe with alcohol. Treat with 2 coats of this:

http://www.autogeek.net/gtechniq-c4-trim-restorer.html

Don't worry about your black or rubberized black trim again lol, it's good now. I do my lip, skirts, rear diffuser, mirror plastic, cowl, window trim... any and all black or rubberized black plastic, it's awesome stuff. Two coats.

For lenses, meaning headlight/foglight/turn signal/tail light/reflector I use this:

http://www.autogeek.net/optimum-opti-lens-headlight-coating.html

Again, *clean* is key. Stoner's Invisible Glass Window Cleaner does the trick here, and you want to make sure you've polished out any swirls before application and removed any discoloration. This can be done with the Meg's 105/205 or specialized products, if you have a need for this let's discuss with pics please.

This lens coat lasts about 2 years in harsh climates, about 3 in less harsh climates, indefinitely if you typically garage your car and don't use it a lot. Beads water, bugs come off with ease, it's what you want.

And on the paint, I use CQUK:

http://www.detailedimage.com/CarPro-M53/Cquartz-UK-Edition-P923/30-ml-S1/

(I also prefer to order from detailedimage because they have the absolute best proactive super rad customer service I have ever encountered, I do not get kickbacks from anyone FYI just my experience).

What? UK Edition in Texas and Arizona? You sound nuts!

Kinda, but it's perfect. It has the properties you want as far as water deflection angles, hardness, etc.... but the key to the UK edition is that it doesn't look overly synthetic. This was my main complaint about 22PLE... it literally looked like black glass on the paint, a bit *too* shiny for my tastes... this tones it down a tad and gives a more natural glow. You can always add a natural wax over a ceramic coating, btw, and this will soften the shine as well. I've been known to do this with Pinnacle Sovereign paste wax over ceramic coatings on brightly colored or dark cars just to let the natural color tones come through from the base coat instead of the top coat becoming overly reflective and losing all depth. I still do this on my black and yellow cars, on Magnetic I actually prefer the harsh shine since it's such a technical and industrial tone in the first place.

Did that cover it? What else?

 

[PatrickGT]

Acutally reading what you wrote about wanting the most shine possible (we are all different!), 22PLE might be your best bet.

 

[Bankss550]

For the polish, judging by that one scratch you will need to do two stages... BUT... you only need to do the harsher compound as needed. Just in the spots where you have deeper scratches. Even here, I would start with a couple of passes with the lighter polish compound and if it doesn't do the trick, move on to the harsher compound.

For example, if using Meg's 105/205 combo you would try those deeper scratches with the 205 finishing product. If this does not do the trick, do those areas with 205 and then do the whole car in 105 including the areas you had to redo in 205. You will get paint correction and a properly even finish this way, you always want to finish the whole vehicle in the same product.

So, that said... wax vs sealant vs ceramic coating. You're getting a TON of rain since the drought broke lol, so protection is key. I don't think a natural wax will be the right product for you because of all of the environmental contaminants in the air in HOU as well as all of the rain/humidity/moisture. You're looking at monthly reapplication in a best case scenario...

For a synthetic sealant, such as BlackFire Wet Diamond or similar, those are a great product and will last probably 6 months with regular maintenance washes and then you need to start all over. These can also look overly "slick" or synthetic, since they are. Keep these products off of plastics, etc... they will discolor.

Ceramic coating: I am a *huge* fan. I applied 22PLE to my beater GTI years ago in Austin and it lasted like 2 years sitting in the sun/rain/etc all the time on a black car. I now use a combination of products:

Black plastic/rubberized trim:

CLEAN FIRST, and clean well. Get any 'protectant' you put on there completely off, wipe with alcohol. Treat with 2 coats of this:

http://www.autogeek.net/gtechniq-c4-trim-restorer.html

Don't worry about your black or rubberized black trim again lol, it's good now. I do my lip, skirts, rear diffuser, mirror plastic, cowl, window trim... any and all black or rubberized black plastic, it's awesome stuff. Two coats.

For lenses, meaning headlight/foglight/turn signal/tail light/reflector I use this:

http://www.autogeek.net/optimum-opti-lens-headlight-coating.html

Again, *clean* is key. Stoner's Invisible Glass Window Cleaner does the trick here, and you want to make sure you've polished out any swirls before application and removed any discoloration. This can be done with the Meg's 105/205 or specialized products, if you have a need for this let's discuss with pics please.

This lens coat lasts about 2 years in harsh climates, about 3 in less harsh climates, indefinitely if you typically garage your car and don't use it a lot. Beads water, bugs come off with ease, it's what you want.

And on the paint, I use CQUK:

http://www.detailedimage.com/CarPro-M53/Cquartz-UK-Edition-P923/30-ml-S1/

(I also prefer to order from detailedimage because they have the absolute best proactive super rad customer service I have ever encountered, I do not get kickbacks from anyone FYI just my experience).

What? UK Edition in Texas and Arizona? You sound nuts!

Kinda, but it's perfect. It has the properties you want as far as water deflection angles, hardness, etc.... but the key to the UK edition is that it doesn't look overly synthetic. This was my main complaint about 22PLE... it literally looked like black glass on the paint, a bit *too* shiny for my tastes... this tones it down a tad and gives a more natural glow. You can always add a natural wax over a ceramic coating, btw, and this will soften the shine as well. I've been known to do this with Pinnacle Sovereign paste wax over ceramic coatings on brightly colored or dark cars just to let the natural color tones come through from the base coat instead of the top coat becoming overly reflective and losing all depth. I still do this on my black and yellow cars, on Magnetic I actually prefer the harsh shine since it's such a technical and industrial tone in the first place.

Did that cover it? What else?

I disagree with your polishing, compound step. I personally would only use m105 on imperfections that m205 and (my preference) orange pads can't remove. There's no sense in removing clear coat over the whole car if not needed. I have had great results using that method. I used that technique on my 09 Accord with what appeared to be a soft clear. Other than that, I pretty much agree with everything you mention.

 

[P51DNA]

I should have followed my advice as it's not worth getting into. I appreciate your response but not your tone. Regardless of your knowledge and experience you come off as a know it all to me and it's just a big turn off. Maybe I'm reading you wrong. Perhaps I came off the same way to you, who knows. Hard to judge someones intent with text.

You mentioned several times that's there's more than one way of doing things, but I just feel like you put those other things down, and more so you assume to much about me.

I'm the type of guy who researches everything I do. I'm sure you subscribe to the same detailing forums and groups as I do, as none of this info is new.

I asked you about your methods to perhaps learn something from it. My word disagree probably wasn't wise, as your methods are solid advice, just slightly different than mine. I feel its personal with you though. It can easily go both ways.

So back to the foam. There was some confusion on my part as I didn't compute it the first time I read it that we were talking about stripping the car and not washing it. You copied your post from another thread about applying coating, but I was still focused on the OPs question. I use CG citrus wash to strip. About 4-5oz in the cannon and 3 in the bucket. So yeah you wouldn't want a ph balanced soap to strip. I do use a high quality ph balanced soap on normal washes though, and have zero issues with rubber trim since I bought my car in 02/15. I feel it is much safer for my paint than my tap. I also use DI water if you had read my post above, but as a final rinse.

I am also a fan of m205. I don't get any dusting from it though, unlike its brother m105 which is a dust machine. I could criticize your methods. Over working the polish, not cleaning your pads, and switching them out as needed. Letting is dry before removing it. But I have a feeling you already know all that and I wouldn't want to offend you.

My method is the less I have to touch the car, the less risk of damage I have. Technique is the foundation, but I guess I come off as a newbie so you felt the need to remind me. The truth is you touch the paint, you can damage it. We do all we can to prevent that. Sometimes we have to go through great lengths to prevent it (ie: soft black paint), but we learn what works and where as we go. Even the top guys in the industry. No one is ever done learning. You can indeed wash your car after polish and not damage it. I just prefer not to take on additional risk personally. IPA/Eraser method has worked great for me. There's also a large thread on autogeek I believe about IPA dilution. I guess we can just say I prefer to use extreme caution only once with an IPA and MF vs wash, dry, and then IPA. Blotting, sheeting method, irox, clean clean clean, and it's all great advice and methods.

I especially agree with you on the clay/ironx

 

[PatrickGT]

I disagree with your polishing, compound step. I personally would only use m105 on imperfections that m205 and (my preference) orange pads can't remove. There's no sense in removing clear coat over the whole car if not needed. I have had great results using that method. I used that technique on my 09 Accord with what appeared to be a soft clear. Other than that, I pretty much agree with everything you mention.

Yeah, I got that entire thing backwards lol.

Try the safest/least harsh first. If that doesn't work, move to something stronger but only in the spots where necessary. That is what I was trying to say, but got the numbers mixed up.

 

[PatrickGT]

I should have followed my advice as it's not worth getting into. I appreciate your response but not your tone. Regardless of your knowledge and experience you come off as a know it all to me and it's just a big turn off. Maybe I'm reading you wrong. Perhaps I came off the same way to you, who knows. Hard to judge someones intent with text.

You mentioned several times that's there's more than one way of doing things, but I just feel like you put those other things down, and more so you assume to much about me.

I'm the type of guy who researches everything I do. I'm sure you subscribe to the same detailing forums and groups as I do, as none of this info is new.

I asked you about your methods to perhaps learn something from it. My word disagree probably wasn't wise, as your methods are solid advice, just slightly different than mine. I feel its personal with you though. It can easily go both ways.

You definitely took me wrong, or I came off wrong, or whatever version of that makes it kind of neither of our fault lol... I'm just very straightforward. I do assume that everyone here knows that I am speaking from my own opinion which is a mixture of:

Personal Experience
Technique (which is a big driver in methodology and product selection)
Desired Results
Fairies and Unicorns
Other Shit

So, what I'm saying is I basically assume that we all understand I'm giving one opinion and when I'm making a comparison between the way I do something and the way you or anyone else does something all I'm saying is my opinion on that. I'm not putting you down, or not intending to, or the way you do things... we can learn from one another, there is often something in the spaces between the lines that was left out so a little clarification goes a long way. Maybe the step I'm doing before the one you disagree with requires me to do the next differently, maybe my technique on something differs from yours, and maybe I just don't place emphasis on some things in the same way and vice versa. It's totally fine, let's just make these fuckin' cars look good.

So back to the foam. There was some confusion on my part as I didn't compute it the first time I read it that we were talking about stripping the car and not washing it. You copied your post from another thread about applying coating, but I was still focused on the OPs question. I use CG citrus wash to strip. About 4-5oz in the cannon and 3 in the bucket. So yeah you wouldn't want a ph balanced soap to strip. I do use a high quality ph balanced soap on normal washes though, and have zero issues with rubber trim since I bought my car in 02/15. I feel it is much safer for my paint than my tap. I also use DI water if you had read my post above, but as a final rinse.

Hey now I read your post, I mean I type a lot of shit out and try to help but sometimes I miss a detail so let's not go back to that 'tone' discussion lol.

But, yeah for sure on all of that. The post was intended to give a basic but full front-to-back detailing outline. Every car is different, every person is different, it all requires some evaluation of those things to get down to it which is why it's difficult for me to actually post something like that in the first place because on the internet I'll always be wrong.

I will stand behind my suggestion of Meg's Gold Class for everyday washes. It's actually a high quality, pH balanced car wash shampoo that costs $8 for 64oz. I've tried a lot of shampoos, and maybe it's just the way that golden amber glows in the desert sun that keeps me coming back. But seriously, it's pretty damned good and exceptionally good for the price.

I am also a fan of m205. I don't get any dusting from it though, unlike its brother m105 which is a dust machine.

Got that right, but hey there are alternatives. What is your preference here?

I could criticize your methods. Over working the polish, not cleaning your pads, and switching them out as needed. Letting is dry before removing it. But I have a feeling you already know all that and I wouldn't want to offend you.

Jeez, back to tone.. I feel like I should have read through the whole post before I started to reply because I likely just wouldn't have bothered when I got here. Were the first four paragraphs of your response not quite enough bitching for you? Did you really NEED to intertwine it into everything? Can you not behave as a mature, adult male? This is a teenage girl level of snapchat grind, fam. Embarrassing.

At any rate, have you seen my videos? Have you seen me work in person? I have no idea where you are getting this overworking the polish, not cleaning my pads, letting it dry absolute bullshit lie from. That is entirely a fabrication, and I really don't appreciate your libelous accusations.

My method is the less I have to touch the car, the less risk of damage I have.

This is generally pretty smart.

Technique is the foundation, but I guess I come off as a newbie so you felt the need to remind me. The truth is you touch the paint, you can damage it.

If you touch the paint, you *can* damage it. That is entirely different than if you touch the paint, you *will* damage it. And you are going to wash this car, you are going to drive it, hell you have to put some type of a sealant on top of it and you're gonna want to get everything off first. You will have to touch it. It's just how, and when, and with what that matters. The sudsy water and fresh wash mitt that has caused such a great stir in this instance is one of the safest in my opinion for my uses.

We do all we can to prevent that. Sometimes we have to go through great lengths to prevent it (ie: soft black paint),

Ever had a Jet Black BMW? Ever had two at the same time?

I feel like the paint was actually just a pastel smeared over the metal, holy shit I have never experienced something so soft. In stark contrast, Black Sapphire Metallic is nearly a diamond. Glasurit clear coat n all that.

but we learn what works and where as we go. Even the top guys in the industry. No one is ever done learning.

Yes, absolutely agree with you here. I mean I don't stumble across the latest ceramic trim coating because I'm done learning.

You can indeed wash your car after polish and not damage it. I just prefer not to take on additional risk personally.

I'm just an adrenaline junkie.

IPA/Eraser method has worked great for me. There's also a large thread on autogeek I believe about IPA dilution. I guess we can just say I prefer to use extreme caution only once with an IPA and MF vs wash, dry, and then IPA. Blotting, sheeting method, irox, clean clean clean, and it's all great advice and methods.

Yes, there are lots of opinions out there about pretty much everything. Many are different from mine. It's totally ok with me, none of them are detailing my cars.

I especially agree with you on the clay/ironx

What's your favorite scent? Lemon Dumpster Fire or Cherry Burnt Asshole?

 

[sharp21]

This is a great thread, thanks! I like having a couple of opinions being floated, really helps to show what options are available.

It makes sense to do a deeper cut where the damage is, then a lighter cut elsewhere. Either way I'm definitely going with a proper coating. Having only waxed my car maybe 4 times I can see now that it is woefully unprotected in this environment.

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