HPDE oil weight

[Brent Dalton]

I've probed around a little trying to find a solid answer from the race teams running the coyote. I a few different answers. I saw a post from Dean Martin a year or two ago stating they ran motorcraft 5w50. I hesitantly ran Amsoil 5w20 signature series at COTA and it seemed to do fine. No oil pressure drop outside of the normal range and temp stayed in the green.

I do think oil temp may become an issue in the future as outside temp increases. My water temp was climbing when it was about 80 degrees outside and I had to back off a couple of times to let the car cool down some. I think oil and water temp may become an issue as outside temp increases when running the car for a sustained period of time. My car is a performance package GT for reference.

Would still like to know what the race teams are using. My gut tells me 5w50 for track and 5w20 for everything else.

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[Optimum Performance]

Remember race teams are not running "stock" motors. We don't know what bearing clearances they run in race motors. Besides no one is running a '15 Model engine in any Pro Racing.

 

[Budwise]

I've probed around a little trying to find a solid answer from the race teams running the coyote. I a few different answers. I saw a post from Dean Martin a year or two ago stating they ran motorcraft 5w50. I hesitantly ran Amsoil 5w20 signature series at COTA and it seemed to do fine. No oil pressure drop outside of the normal range and temp stayed in the green.

I do think oil temp may become an issue in the future as outside temp increases. My water temp was climbing when it was about 80 degrees outside and I had to back off a couple of times to let the car cool down some. I think oil and water temp may become an issue as outside temp increases when running the car for a sustained period of time. My car is a performance package GT for reference.

Would still like to know what the race teams are using. My gut tells me 5w50 for track and 5w20 for everything else.

Not all 5W20's are created equal of course. Running 5W20 Amsoil SS vs Motorcraft 5W20 are two different worlds apart imo. I'd still go to their 5W30 at least in the future but you'll probably be fine either way.

I know Vorshlag used 5W50 in their S197 Coyote racecar and it was not a Boss or Track Pack car either.

 

[Anthony@HTM]

I've probed around a little trying to find a solid answer from the race teams running the coyote. I a few different answers. I saw a post from Dean Martin a year or two ago stating they ran motorcraft 5w50. I hesitantly ran Amsoil 5w20 signature series at COTA and it seemed to do fine. No oil pressure drop outside of the normal range and temp stayed in the green.

I do think oil temp may become an issue in the future as outside temp increases. My water temp was climbing when it was about 80 degrees outside and I had to back off a couple of times to let the car cool down some. I think oil and water temp may become an issue as outside temp increases when running the car for a sustained period of time. My car is a performance package GT for reference.

Would still like to know what the race teams are using. My gut tells me 5w50 for track and 5w20 for everything else.

I can tell you that if I had a 5.0 I would be running a 40 weight at the track at a minimum.

This 20 weight bs has only come about for fuel economy.


I also second what Budwise said about the difference in oils. That 5w-20 signature is leaps and bounds ahead of motorcraft.

I would also reccomend running water wetter, if had no coolant temp issues since switching over.

 

[SteveW]

Since you guys can't agree I put 5w-30 Mobil 1 in

I have instructor training tomorrow, autox on Sunday and then instruct/drive at an HPDE in a couple weeks for starters. The track I'll be on isn't all that hard on drivetrains and top speed maybe 110-115.

 

[Brent Dalton]

Remember race teams are not running "stock" motors. We don't know what bearing clearances they run in race motors. Besides no one is running a '15 Model engine in any Pro Racing.

Depends on the series and the definition of "pro". I consider trans am a pro series. There are a few guys racing stock 15 engines in that series. Wondet what internal mods the WC GTS guys are running?

 

[Brent Dalton]

I can tell you that if I had a 5.0 I would be running a 40 weight at the track at a minimum.

This 20 weight bs has only come about for fuel economy.


I also second what Budwise said about the difference in oils. That 5w-20 signature is leaps and bounds ahead of motorcraft.

I would also reccomend running water wetter, if had no coolant temp issues since switching over.

Tracking all. Wasn't questioning quality of amsoil vs. Motorcraft as I've been running it amsoil in my cars since 2009. just stating what a known mustang racing expert had stated.

 

[Optimum Performance]

Depends on the series and the definition of "pro". I consider trans am a pro series. There are a few guys racing stock 15 engines in that series. Wondet what internal mods the WC GTS guys are running?

I am not positive but I think they run a spec RY motor but I might be thinking of previous GS years in GA.

Kent/Bodle are running '15's but not sure if they are running '14 motors and electronics.

In any event running a street car in a 20-25minute session, even on slicks vs. running 50 minutes to 2hr:45min races at the pro level would require different oils. Again just my opinion.

Our cars have very good oil control, so I have a hard time buying oil starvation from oil slosh at "our" level. I use 'our' to mean street cars at a track day, not ability. Friends have sent rods out of thier SN197's running heavier than stock weights.

My oil samples have shown minimal breakdown of both the Motorcraft 5W-20 Synthetic Blend and Mobil 1 Extended Performance. I have never seen low oil pressure at idle (indicator of viscosity break down) coming off a hard session in the heat when the oil almost hit the yellow on the guage.

For Reference:

Engine Oil Temperature

The engine oil temperature gauge display ranges as follows:
38-60°C (100-140°F) (low) White
61-137°C (141-279°F) (normal) GREEN
138-146°C (280-295°F) (warm) YELLOW
147-160°C (296-320°F) (hot) RED

 

[mustang_guy]

I am not positive but I think they run a spec RY motor but I might be thinking of previous GS years in GA.

Kent/Bodle are running '15's but not sure if they are running '14 motors and electronics.

In any event running a street car in a 20-25minute session, even on slicks vs. running 50 minutes to 2hr:45min races at the pro level would require different oils. Again just my opinion.

Our cars have very good oil control, so I have a hard time buying oil starvation from oil slosh at "our" level. I use 'our' to mean street cars at a track day, not ability. Friends have sent rods out of thier SN197's running heavier than stock weights.

My oil samples have shown minimal breakdown of both the Motorcraft 5W-20 Synthetic Blend and Mobil 1 Extended Performance. I have never seen low oil pressure at idle (indicator of viscosity break down) coming off a hard session in the heat when the oil almost hit the yellow on the guage.

For Reference:

Engine Oil Temperature

The engine oil temperature gauge display ranges as follows:
38-60°C (100-140°F) (low) White
61-137°C (141-279°F) (normal) GREEN
138-146°C (280-295°F) (warm) YELLOW
147-160°C (296-320°F) (hot) RED

Unleashed beast on svt has shown 5w20 doesnt hold up in Motorcraft nor does their even worse 5w50. Ive had coyote failures in my bay at ford because of the 5w20. It isnt high quality oil nor is its 5w50. The only 5w20 that holds up has been amsoil and pennzoil ultra that has been seen time and time again.

I dont buy for a second s197 coyote throwing rods because of oil. The track pack s197s have 5w50 approval from ford. The boss used 5w50 as well. We pretty much have 302 boss engines. 5w50 or 5w40 is okay in the s550 coyote
Dont spread misinformation please.

 

[Optimum Performance]

I apologize, I was only sharing my experience. I've attached my oil sample results running 5W-20 Motorcraft SynBlend. The M1EP seems to hold viscosity slightly better but it was run at a different track. At this point I feel it irresponsible to recommend any oil much over a 5W-30 assuming warm temps and or allowing the vehicle to come up to temp beforehand. The data does not support a viscosity change. Street cars running a 20 minute session are only going to touch 280F oil temp. under the right circumstances. If temps run higher than that it's a cooling issue, not an oil viscosity issue.

There are a lot of people who have never driven on a track, who will be with a coach learning the lines, operating their vehicles at normal temperatures. No need to panic them with engine failures when there is no basis for it.

 

[mustang_guy]

Oh, i know that part is fine. :cheers: The thing that mostly made me post was the s197s throwing rods because of thicker weight. That just isnt true. I dont want people to panic and think that the s550 coyote cant use 40 or 50 weight. It can and does well. The 5w20 rating is for cafe not because the motor needs that thin of oil.

The 5w20 from motorcraft is not a high quality choice to beat on the car with. This is the cars blood. While it is fine for economy cars it isn't something you want in your performance mustang. While it helds up in your oil analysis it still doesnt have a strong score. Why anyone would just want mediocre protection in their car is baffling. Its not like Pennzoil ultra is a lot more expensive like amsoil.
Hope you have a great weekend

 

[Radiation Joe]

I am simply amazed by the number of people that equate higher viscosity with better protection. This is simply not correct.

The fact of the matter is that modern engines are designed to run on thin oils and there are plenty of reasons why running a higher viscosity oil might actually provide less protection.

Keep in mind that almost all engines are in bypass at relatively low rpm. When the oil system is in bypass, oil flow rate is inversely dependent on viscosity. Higher viscosity results in less oil flow. These engines are designed for 20W oil.

I don't believe anyone on this site will ever get their oil hot enough to justify even a 40W oil. Don't these engines go into limp mode if the oil gets above 300 degrees or so?

If people are really concerned about protection for track days, the discussion should really be about what brand and type to use and how often to change it; not so much about viscosity.

 

[racingandfishing]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but don't you run the risk of having your warranty voided if you don't use the factory specified 5/20?

In the manual they state you risk engine damage if using anything other than what is listed and the only two options I see are 5/20 semi and 5/20 full synthetic.

If anyone could also shed light on when it is okay to shift to full synthetic I would appreciate it. It seems there are a lot of opinions, but not finding many facts. Including from the local dealer...though that isn't surprising!

 

[Optimum Performance]

I am curious, when you were at Ford, what was the common failure associated with the Coyote Motor? You referenced it being caused by the oil.

I'm curious because with the field reports I've read and comments from competitive oil manufacturers everything points to the Synthetic Blend 5W-20, which is blended closer to the old 5W/10W-30's due in part to its additive package and the premium base stocks used in the blend

I operated this oil out of its safe zone and only lost .9 tenths of a point. In fact the oil started out .2 point lower than specified by Ford. If it was the oil I'll give that to packaging and distribution variances. If it was the variance due to the lab than the oil did better than I expected. When an oil approaches 300F (I approached 280) a 5W30 approaches a 4.0 viscosity. The results I experienced tells me the additive package in the OE oil has a very excellent shear package.

We need to remember that Ford and Honda pioneered 5-20 oils into production engines in the early part of the last decade. Everything they designed was around this oil.

I suspect they found a flaw in their process, cooling system design too late so recommended a 5W50 to
Band-Aid a design flaw. I also suspect why the '15 has a new block, crank, rods and pistons. This also likely means a different ring package and bearing package. The '15 has better cooling.

The Shelby (I have yet to look up the clearances of this engine) is designed for 5W50. Piston speed is quite a bit higher so at high temperature Ford likely found higher wear rates in the liner/ring area. Piston wall clearance is also likely opened up but with a very light ring package. An oil with a higher viscosity would be needed.

Spinning the GT to over the 7K design limit will cause oiling issues and require a higher viscosity oil to Band-Aid running an engine beyond its design parameters. A good choice would be to experiment with a Diesel engine oil due to a better shear package. Compression ignition engines experience violent loads, therefore they have oil made for diesels.

 

[mustang_guy]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but don't you run the risk of having your warranty voided if you don't use the factory specified 5/20?

In the manual they state you risk engine damage if using anything other than what is listed and the only two options I see are 5/20 semi and 5/20 full synthetic.

If anyone could also shed light on when it is okay to shift to full synthetic I would appreciate it. It seems there are a lot of opinions, but not finding many facts. Including from the local dealer...though that isn't surprising!

No ive covered this warranty topic for 5w50 and 5w20. Im an ex ford master tech. Left in 2013 for bmw. Make a lot more money because the cars are unreliable. Switch oil in after the first 1000 miles. Here are the posts where i covered this.

WSS-M2C945-A=API SN;ISLAC GF-5. If ford tries to deny anyone using amsoil most amsoil dealers want you to contact them with the dealer name and persons name that told you this. They take it serious and will follow up with them. Fords mc 5w50 isnt even 50 after 1000 miles. Its garbage in my opinion

Ford does not maintain a list of API Certified oils. I can only give you information that I have from being a Ford owner and ex ford master tech. If you contact Ford regarding oil Ford is going to recommend Motorcraft. To get a different answer you have to talk to a company representative. If an issue can not be resolved thru the service manager you need to contact the Ford service representative for your area. This would not be the first time a dealership service manager has contradicted a manufactures policy. Also from experience I must of have a lot of luck because I have taken in my vehicles to have warranty service completed and each dealership did not even ask if I kept service records.

Also if you want to pay you can check the link below, a website that will go into detail of the WSS-M2C945-A specification.

http://infostore.saiglobal.com/store/Details.aspx?ProductID=1430718

As far as mc 5w50 its a sheering monster. Worse then anything ive ever seen. Its garbage.

Id like to share this for those that think amsoils 10w30 is too thick for 32 degrees http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/in...at-is-the-best-oil-to-use/page-2#entry1135426

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