HPDE oil weight

[mustang_guy]

I am simply amazed by the number of people that equate higher viscosity with better protection. This is simply not correct.

The fact of the matter is that modern engines are designed to run on thin oils and there are plenty of reasons why running a higher viscosity oil might actually provide less protection.

Keep in mind that almost all engines are in bypass at relatively low rpm. When the oil system is in bypass, oil flow rate is inversely dependent on viscosity. Higher viscosity results in less oil flow. These engines are designed for 20W oil.

I don't believe anyone on this site will ever get their oil hot enough to justify even a 40W oil. Don't these engines go into limp mode if the oil gets above 300 degrees or so?

If people are really concerned about protection for track days, the discussion should really be about what brand and type to use and how often to change it; not so much about viscosity.

I agree it depends what they are doing.
I recommend 0w40 or 5w40 based off what the purpose is with the car. 5w20 is fine if they use pennzoil ultra or amsoil for some light track use but if the skills are decent a 40 is much better. If they drive like the stig 5w50 not in motorcraft. 5w50 is not good for street use.

Changing oil too often is a waste of money. Using cheaper oil and changing it more often costs more then running high quality oil and not changing it nearly as often.

Even unleash beast has shined a lot on oil on svt performance and has shown some of your ideas to be false.

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[Optimum Performance]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but don't you run the risk of having your warranty voided if you don't use the factory specified 5/20?

In the manual they state you risk engine damage if using anything other than what is listed and the only two options I see are 5/20 semi and 5/20 full synthetic.

If anyone could also shed light on when it is okay to shift to full synthetic I would appreciate it. It seems there are a lot of opinions, but not finding many facts. Including from the local dealer...though that isn't surprising!

That's a thread to itself. We ran OE blend for about 4K miles. We ran the factory fill for 3K miles. This was in the engine for 6 months including a track day. We ran it again until the switch was made to Mobil 1 EP at 4300 miles. This car has only been driven hard, it was broken in hard. It does not use oil, and I do not collect excessive amounts in the catch can. Our break in consisted of bouncing it off the Rev limiter since it was in our possession.

To answer your first question as long as the oil meets the API requirements warranty should not be an issue. The latest API requirements are more for Catalyst deposits than anything else. OEM's are on the hook for emissions longer than powertrains. Oil samples will not detect the difference between a 20 and a 30. They are looking at particle count and fuel dilution. Everything else they download off the ecu. They already know what the cause was by the failure anyway

 

[mustang_guy]

I am curious, when you were at Ford, what was the common failure associated with the Coyote Motor? You referenced it being caused by the oil.

I'm curious because with the field reports I've read and comments from competitive oil manufacturers everything points to the Synthetic Blend 5W-20, which is blended closer to the old 5W/10W-30's due in part to its additive package and the premium base stocks used in the blend

I operated this oil out of its safe zone and only lost .9 tenths of a point. In fact the oil started out .2 point lower than specified by Ford. If it was the oil I'll give that to packaging and distribution variances. If it was the variance due to the lab than the oil did better than I expected. When an oil approaches 300F (I approached 280) a 5W30 approaches a 4.0 viscosity. The results I experienced tells me the additive package in the OE oil has a very excellent shear package.

We need to remember that Ford and Honda pioneered 5-20 oils into production engines in the early part of the last decade. Everything they designed was around this oil.

I suspect they found a flaw in their process, cooling system design too late so recommended a 5W50 to
Band-Aid a design flaw. I also suspect why the '15 has a new block, crank, rods and pistons. This also likely means a different ring package and bearing package. The '15 has better cooling.

The Shelby (I have yet to look up the clearances of this engine) is designed for 5W50. Piston speed is quite a bit higher so at high temperature Ford likely found higher wear rates in the liner/ring area. Piston wall clearance is also likely opened up but with a very light ring package. An oil with a higher viscosity would be needed.

Spinning the GT to over the 7K design limit will cause oiling issues and require a higher viscosity oil to Band-Aid running an engine beyond its design parameters. A good choice would be to experiment with a Diesel engine oil due to a better shear package. Compression ignition engines experience violent loads, therefore they have oil made for diesels.

I covered where i was a few posts ago. The failures were ring
damage and or bearings. People were tracking the car during these failures. At least everyone that came in my bay.

Check svt performance. The lack of 5w20 motorcraft holding up under abuse has been discussed to death there. Ford uses 5w20 for cafe. Ive had higher ups at ford personally confirm this to me in person when they had came by our dealership to see a remodel.

Ive never seen any cooling system issues in any coyote/road runner issue. The only cooling issue for the gt500s were the heat exchangers were undersized. It caused no issues stock though only modded Ex 14 gt500 owner here. The gt500 did not have to run 5w50 for every day use. Infact 5w50 is far too thick for the street and oil pressure runs high. Most stepped down to 5/10w30 or 5/10w40. 5w50 typically ia used by people too scared to switch or people that had an actual use for it

That is more misinformation. The s550 is an upgraded boss which spins over 7 easily with a tune and the right manifold. There is no band aid for the gt. Simply the proper oil weight for intended purpose and not using motorcraft.

 

[mustang_guy]

That's a thread to itself. We ran OE blend for about 4K miles. We ran the factory fill for 3K miles. This was in the engine for 6 months including a track day. We ran it again until the switch was made to Mobil 1 EP at 4300 miles. This car has only been driven hard, it was broken in hard. It does not use oil, and I do not collect excessive amounts in the catch can. Our break in consisted of bouncing it off the Rev limiter since it was in our possession.

To answer your first question as long as the oil meets the API requirements warranty should not be an issue. The latest API requirements are more for Catalyst deposits than anything else. OEM's are on the hook for emissions longer than powertrains. Oil samples will not detect the difference between a 20 and a 30. They are looking at particle count and fuel dilution. Everything else they download off the ecu. They already know what the cause was by the failure anyway

Its not a thread in itself. Ive covered the warranty topic.

The factory oil filter cut opens have shown to change it at 1000 miles. That isnt a thread in itself either. You really need to go to svt performance :cheers:

 

[racingandfishing]

That's a thread to itself.

Understood on the thread in itself. I have read many other threads as well and many appear to be based on emotion and conjecture and not fact.

Seemed like there are several in the know on this thread so thought I would ask!

And thank you for the additional information.

 

[Optimum Performance]

Sorry to keep beating this horse but you keep referring to previous generation engines. Not S550. You call it an upgraded Boss motor, I partially agree and that is my point, they changed everything that was failing and no longer recommend a different oil. I understand this is in part due to CAFE. Manufacturers will never admit to a design /process flaw. In my experience ring failures were caused by left over metal in the liner from the honine process. Rings are always blamed but during the initial run in the ring wipes the metal out of the liner. Statistically speaking the failure rate is low (.5 to 2%) but becomes more visible working for an OEM because of warranty work. OEM shops see all the failures of new products.

Running a car harder will expose these marginal engines at a higher rate. The vast majority do not fail. Without data downloads and snap shots of the conditions leading up to and during a failure it is pure speculation. I have heard of only a couple issues with the new 550 engine, and most of those were never on a race track. Ford has improved their process and design over the previous design. You will always have a failure rate, the internet tends to exponentially increase those numbers :cheers:

Now stop scaring away my best customers from tracking their S550's LOL

 

[racingandfishing]

Sorry to keep beating this horse but you keep referring to previous generation engines. Not S550. You call it an upgraded Boss motor, I partially agree and that is my point, they changed everything that was failing and no longer recommend a different oil. I understand this is in part due to CAFE. Manufacturers will never admit to a design /process flaw. In my experience ring failures were caused by left over metal in the liner from the honine process. Rings are always blamed but during the initial run in the ring wipes the metal out of the liner. Statistically speaking the failure rate is low (.5 to 2%) but becomes more visible working for an OEM because of warranty work. OEM shops see all the failures of new products.

Running a car harder will expose these marginal engines at a higher rate. The vast majority do not fail. Without data downloads and snap shots of the conditions leading up to and during a failure it is pure speculation. I have heard of only a couple issues with the new 550 engine, and most of those were never on a race track. Ford has improved their process and design over the previous design. You will always have a failure rate, the internet tends to exponentially increase those numbers :cheers:

Now stop scaring away my best customers from tracking their S550's LOL

I believe you are not referencing my posts?

 

[Optimum Performance]

I believe you are not referencing my posts?

No Sir.

 

[mustang_guy]

Sorry to keep beating this horse but you keep referring to previous generation engines. Not S550. You call it an upgraded Boss motor, I partially agree and that is my point, they changed everything that was failing and no longer recommend a different oil. I understand this is in part due to CAFE. Manufacturers will never admit to a design /process flaw. In my experience ring failures were caused by left over metal in the liner from the honine process. Rings are always blamed but during the initial run in the ring wipes the metal out of the liner. Statistically speaking the failure rate is low (.5 to 2%) but becomes more visible working for an OEM because of warranty work. OEM shops see all the failures of new products.

Running a car harder will expose these marginal engines at a higher rate. The vast majority do not fail. Without data downloads and snap shots of the conditions leading up to and during a failure it is pure speculation. I have heard of only a couple issues with the new 550 engine, and most of those were never on a race track. Ford has improved their process and design over the previous design. You will always have a failure rate, the internet tends to exponentially increase those numbers :cheers:

Now stop scaring away my best customers from tracking their S550's LOL

Im referring to the coyote/road runner in general. They no longer recommend 5w50 for the s550 because of cafe, that is it. You can take it however you want 5w20 motorcraft isnt a good choice for performance applications. Im aware of what a manufacturer will admit to and not admit. Ive been in this business for 3 decades. When i have had Ford warranty rep's blame their own oil im going to disagree especially after plenty of talks with ford higher ups.

I cant in good conscious let you keep suggesting they use motorcraft 5w20 for track. Suggest a quality 5w20 and i wont say much. . 5w20 and 5w50 motorcraft have been beat to death on svt performance and it has less then great results in the coyote of any variation or high performance engine from ford thats driven as intended. You will not convince me of otherwise. Seen too much evidence that states otheriwse. Looks like you and i will agree to disagree.

 

[dickeb]

There is a middle ground between a 5w-20 and 5w-50. I don't think anyone on here can argue that 5w-30 isn't perfectly safe to run in an S550...it's just not that different from a 5w-20. 5w-50 is getting to the other end of a spectrum and IS quite a bit different. Point being, why not run a quality 5w-30? Seems to be the logical middle ground on this debate.

Seeing a few engines fail isn't a statistic. Especially when 90% of the Ford engines under warranty out there are going to be running Ford oil. Considering that, of course you're going to see a high percentage of the failed engines using Ford oil...that doesn't mean it was the oil's fault and it says nothing about the quality of the oil.

UOAs show the Ford 5w-20 to be quite adequate, so unless I'm missing something.

These are seriously high-performance engines but I think people equate that with being very hard on oil. That's simply not true...these engines aren't hard on oil at all and UOA's show it.

And last but not least, yes CAFE might be the reason for 5w-20, but engines designed to run 5w-20 were designed to run 5w-20, like it or not. That simple fact seems to be lost here, even when specific design features that deal with viscosity are mentioned.

Just my $02.

 

[Budwise]

Agreed, they only say 5w20 now due to cafe. They need to have x % of their vehicles get x mpg for certain regulations. This is why they were able to say 5w50 in the Boss and Track Pack cars because they made up a tiny fraction of their sales compared to the average GT that was 5w20. With stricter and stricter CAFE standards they probably didn't want to bother with recommending thicker oil to the PP cars simply because 99% of Mustang owners do not need it with their daily street driving. This however doesn't mean it's the correct application for someone tracking their car for 15-20 minutes. I'll say this again, use the oil that is appropriate for what you're doing. Ford put a blanket oil weight based on what the majority of Mustang owners do with their cars but this probably doesn't match you if you're browsing the HPDE forum.

 

[grue]

I'll say this again, use the oil that is appropriate for what you're doing. Ford put a blanket oil weight based on what the majority of Mustang owners do with their cars but this probably doesn't match you if you're browsing the HPDE forum.

not trying to be a smart *** but why not just have an addendum to the user manual - especially when they distinguish about extreme duty usage. say hey - 5w-30 or 5w-50 under extreme conditions. why not include that where they talk about trans and axle fluid under extreme conditions?

 

[MyFirst5.0]

not trying to be a smart *** but why not just have an addendum to the user manual - especially when they distinguish about extreme duty usage. say hey - 5w-30 or 5w-50 under extreme conditions. why not include that where they talk about trans and axle fluid under extreme conditions?

i believe they tell you to change the oil after each track event in the manual

 

[grue]

right by why not take the time to say 5w-50 or whatever at the same time? i guess that's really an answer we'll never officially have - the fact that i asked it shows the doubt i'm having reading too much about it!

 

[apex15stangPP]

Switched over to the 5w-50 last weekend to give it a try, and I was amazed how much better the car ran. Wasn't spitting oil out the breathers, catch can didn't fill up. Car also stayed a little cooler. I usually don't have trouble getting the oil in the red after a few laps but after a full 20 min session is was all good, even the motor stayed cooler. So I'm going with a +1 on this for me. I'm a 5w-50 guy now.

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