GT500 vs...

[Erik427]

I agree with all that. Just sounded like you thought an FPC OHV engine was unfeasible with your prior post.


To be 100% honest, as cool as many of us think the FPC Voodoo engine is(me included no doubt) I think Ford could have achieved all the performance with a CPC Coyote(N/A Cobra Jet is proof) and potentially reduced development and therefore retail costs. Had that allowed the price of the GT350/R to be reduced by say $5-7k(just a spitball, I have no idea how much the FPC factored in as far as development costs) that would have excited me much more.

CPC does not have the same rate of RPM climb. This is a area where a FPC RULES! The CPC could have the same power, but the FPC would still just walk away because of that fact.

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[Grimace427]

CPC does not have the same rate of RPM climb. This is a area where a FPC RULES! The CPC could have the same power, but the FPC would still just walk away because of that fact.

All things being equal, sure. It wouldn't walk away but it would rev more freely.

However, Ford put a heavy dual-mass flywheel on the Voodoo which could nearly negate the weight reduction(as far as RPM climb goes, inertia of the rotating assembly is still reduced which puts less strain on those components). You can put a lightweight flywheel on a Coyote and achieve nearly the same result.

 

[Mr.Black]

I always wondered what kind of black magic the Audi enginers use on the 4.2 FSI, here is a document about it http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_377.pdf
It has a 84.5mm bore which is pretty small for a high hp/l engine and stroke of 92.8 which is longer than the Voodoo, but even with the very unersquare design it rev's to 8400 rpm and makes 450 hp from 4.2 cross plain crank v8.

 

[flaps]

I always wondered what kind of black magic the Audi enginers use on the 4.2 FSI, here is a document about it http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_377.pdf
It has a 84.5mm bore which is pretty small for a high hp/l engine and stroke of 92.8 which is longer than the Voodoo, but even with the very unersquare design it rev's to 8400 rpm and makes 450 hp from 4.2 cross plain crank v8.

Their new V10 for the R8 has a 92mm stroke too and redlines at 8850 RPM.

 

[Erik427]

All things being equal, sure. It wouldn't walk away but it would rev more freely.

However, Ford put a heavy dual-mass flywheel on the Voodoo which could nearly negate the weight reduction(as far as RPM climb goes, inertia of the rotating assembly is still reduced which puts less strain on those components). You can put a lightweight flywheel on a Coyote and achieve nearly the same result.

FPC with better exhaust pulse is the reason. This hurts a CPC unless you are running dragster style zoomies.

 

[Erik427]

467rwhp/374tq.....K&N Chassis Dyno. 5.2 liter Voodoo.

 

[91z28350]

Nice. Now give me a FPC, 4.5 liter with twins, make Ferrari jealous.

 

[thePill]

I think we need an Ecoboost 5.5 and a Twin Turbo 5.5 Cobra Jet twins. Obviously, bore and stroke will need increased... PTWA in use here...

The best way to challenge the Hellcat's 707 at the lowest level would be adding some displacement and increasing the bore and valve sizes for big power.

I think an EB5.5 and TT5.5 would look good in the lineup. Especially if there is a higher revving Voodoo Child on the way. Direct-Port Injection soon please... 2 years at the most...

EB2.0: 350hp/350tq
EB3.5: 412hp/420tq
5.0 Coyote: 475hp/440tq
5.0 Voodoo Child: 555hp/444tq
5.5 Cobra Jet: 662hp/667tq
5.5 Super Cobra Jet: 808hp/812tq

What they would need is a huge 96mm bore and a 94.4mm stroke for a 5.466 liter Coyote. The intake valves could be almost 2mm larger than the Voodoo's. Not a high revving motor but maybe 7000rpm's... It's a big engine for sure. Another option is a 95mm bore (1mm larger than the Voodoo, thus a larger valve) and a 96.5mm stroke (5.47x liter). If they want more than the Hellcat on a single RS-Type Turbo, they need to make over 130hp per liter with a 5.5. Another reason I think a displacement increase is needed at the very least.

I think the GT500 will stand alone for a model year, meaning, the KR (with a Twin Turbo as we speculate) will not be available. So, that means the GT500 needs to bump the Hellcat's 707 using an Ecoboost V8. A 5 liter would need to make a bit more than 130hp per liter to beat 707. The next logical step is to increase the displacement and add DI.


Write that shit down... all speculation...

 

[Grimace427]

EB2.0: 350hp/350tq
EB3.5: 412hp/420tq
5.0 Coyote: 475hp/440tq
5.0 Voodoo Child: 555hp/444tq
5.5 Cobra Jet: 662hp/667tq
5.5 Super Cobra Jet: 808hp/812tq...

IMO, if those engines went into production in the Mustang here are some more realistic output ratings:

EB2.0: 300hp/290tq(down from the 2.3Eco)
EB3.5: 400hp/400tq
5.0 Coyote: 445hp/410tq
5.0 Voodoo Child: 500hp/390tq
5.5 Cobra Jet: 662hp/667tq....doubt there would be two versions of such an expensive engine
5.5 Super Cobra Jet: 675hp/660tq

 

[Grimace427]

FPC with better exhaust pulse is the reason. This hurts a CPC unless you are running dragster style zoomies.

If both engines made the same power that would be irrelevant.


Zoomies? Seriously?

 

[thePill]

IMO, if those engines went into production in the Mustang here are some more realistic output ratings:

EB2.0: 300hp/290tq(down from the 2.3Eco)
EB3.5: 400hp/400tq
5.0 Coyote: 445hp/410tq
5.0 Voodoo Child: 500hp/390tq
5.5 Cobra Jet: 662hp/667tq....doubt there would be two versions of such an expensive engine
5.5 Super Cobra Jet: 675hp/660tq

The Mustang will probably adopt the RS's 2.3 in 2017. The 2.3 is a 350hp engine as is, I feel an DPI update would still have it settle close to that.

The Cobra Jets are the same engine, similar to the Coyote/Boss/Voodoo. It just has some internal changes as well as a FGT type turbo. It will exceed the Hellcat's output.

What we see in some top end Ecoboost engines is between 120hp-140hp per liter, an EB V8 will be between there.

The Super Cobra Jet will probably be close to the FGT efficiency, 140-150hp per liter.

 

[flaps]

I think we need an Ecoboost 5.5 and a Twin Turbo 5.5 Cobra Jet twins. Obviously, bore and stroke will need increased... PTWA in use here...

The best way to challenge the Hellcat's 707 at the lowest level would be adding some displacement and increasing the bore and valve sizes for big power.

I think an EB5.5 and TT5.5 would look good in the lineup. Especially if there is a higher revving Voodoo Child on the way. Direct-Port Injection soon please... 2 years at the most...

EB2.0: 350hp/350tq
EB3.5: 412hp/420tq
5.0 Coyote: 475hp/440tq
5.0 Voodoo Child: 555hp/444tq
5.5 Cobra Jet: 662hp/667tq
5.5 Super Cobra Jet: 808hp/812tq

What they would need is a huge 96mm bore and a 94.4mm stroke for a 5.466 liter Coyote. The intake valves could be almost 2mm larger than the Voodoo's. Not a high revving motor but maybe 7000rpm's... It's a big engine for sure. Another option is a 95mm bore (1mm larger than the Voodoo, thus a larger valve) and a 96.5mm stroke (5.47x liter). If they want more than the Hellcat on a single RS-Type Turbo, they need to make over 130hp per liter with a 5.5. Another reason I think a displacement increase is needed at the very least.

I think the GT500 will stand alone for a model year, meaning, the KR (with a Twin Turbo as we speculate) will not be available. So, that means the GT500 needs to bump the Hellcat's 707 using an Ecoboost V8. A 5 liter would need to make a bit more than 130hp per liter to beat 707. The next logical step is to increase the displacement and add DI.


Write that shit down... all speculation...

There is no way for Ford to increase the bore over 94mm of the Voodoo. That is as far as they can push it. The bore spacing is only 100mm. Also, I think the stroke is as far as they can push it too. The Coyote/Voodoo have the same deck height (227mm) as the old 4.6L, which only had a stroke of 90mm. The 5.4/5.8L had a higher deck height (256mm) which allowed for its longer stroke of 105.8mm.

Also, there is no way Ford is building a single turbo V8, especially alongside a twin turbo V8. It's just not going to happen. A single turbo would cause the exhaust manifolds to be way too long meaning the catalytic converter would be too far away. No way it could pass emissions. It would also cause more turbo lag and a higher boost threshold, which would not be acceptable in a street car.

Either a twin turbo or a supercharger is the only way they're going. And the engine is not going to be any bigger than 5.2L (and it doesn't need to be, they're already getting ~650hp out of a 3.5L). Hopefully they go with a twin turbo setup to differentiate it from the Camaro and older Mustangs.

 

[Grimace427]

Also, there is no way Ford is building a single turbo V8, especially alongside a twin turbo V8. It's just not going to happen. A single turbo would cause the exhaust manifolds to be way too long meaning the catalytic converter would be too far away. No way it could pass emissions. It would also cause more turbo lag and a higher boost threshold, which would not be acceptable in a street car.

I agree it won't happen, but there is a way it could happen. Hot-V turbo placement. Switch the intake and exhaust ports in the cylinder heads so the exhaust comes out in the cylinder head valley. Stick the turbo(s) there and the cat can be right there below the firewall. Mercedes, Audi, and BMW have already gone this route with good results. Also greatly minimizes turbo lag since the manifolds can be made super short and more straight than typical side mounted turbo manifolds.

 

[flaps]

I agree it won't happen, but there is a way it could happen. Hot-V turbo placement. Switch the intake and exhaust ports in the cylinder heads so the exhaust comes out in the cylinder head valley. Stick the turbo(s) there and the cat can be right there below the firewall. Mercedes, Audi, and BMW have already gone this route with good results. Also greatly minimizes turbo lag since the manifolds can be made super short and more straight than typical side mounted turbo manifolds.

I was thinking about that because their Powerstroke diesel V8 is set up that way, but I figured it would be too many changes for it to really be cost feasible since it wouldn't really help performance all that much. Plus all those German V8s are twin turbos anyway.

 

[Grimace427]

I was thinking about that because their Powerstroke diesel V8 is set up that way, but I figured it would be too many changes for it to really be cost feasible since it wouldn't really help performance all that much. Plus all those German V8s are twin turbos anyway.

It would be an all new engine at that point.

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