GT500 vs...

[thePill]

While we wait for official Chevy press releases, let's come to our own conclusions...


The first video released didn't have any real clear supercharger whine that I could tell. It also didn't look like it had 500+hp on any exits and, for the most part, it was still unsettled. This is plain to see in the first video. The second video confirmed my rain and puddles report and could be the reason none of the cars put in any real effort. However, the second video did capture some whine. There were at least two cars in the video, one with pit stripes and one without. I heard the plain one whine, and maybe the stripped one too. I must admit, I watched the video once.

I guess it is possible there are more than two but, we seen still pics of the cars as well. Some close ups of the bottom feeder grill shows either an AC Condenser or an auxiliary Heat Exchanger for the LT4. What I seen was a single exchanger, there was no Condenser/SC Cooler combo. So? What's the deal???

Well... A long time ago thePill suddenly shifted his concern from the brake/tire situation to a cooling situation. This was before anyone knew about the 3 radiator stack. Essentially, I warned about the limited upper grill area, the AC Condensers airflow restrictions to the radiator and a potential issue with LT4 cooling in this particular package... along with why bottom feeding is bad, in traffic/racing...

Again... thePill must be crazy... because as time goes on, it sure looks like a potential issue. From what we have seen, they are either NOT offering AC at all, making AC optional therefor performance testing without it OR, the picture we seen simply isn't an LT4 Camaro AND, they are testing both NA man/auto and SC man/auto.

Either way, you can't deny the possibility of an airflow/cooling conflict between the AC Condenser and Auxiliary SC Heat Exchanger. With the 3 Radiator system in place as well as a Trans cooler, space is very limited...

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[1320']

Given the Raptor and GT being a TTV6 EcoBoost...it seems that Ford is positioning the top tier cars as being TTV6's

Thoughts on a 3,700lb 650hp/600 tq 10 speed GT500?

 

[thePill]

Given the Raptor and GT being a TTV6 EcoBoost...it seems that Ford is positioning the top tier cars as being TTV6's

Thoughts on a 3,700lb 650hp/600 tq 10 speed GT500?

Since the TT3.5 is already assumed to be the engine, I'd say we are more than likely about to receive a curveball. Right now, anything under 3950lbs would be a blessing. The TT3.5 isn't going to save us 250lbs. Maybe 100lbs...



Did you see Chevy gave official weight gain numbers for the 2016 Camaro Convertible???

Chevy claims it only gained 55lbs over the coupe. Swear to god, straight from Chevy.


That is not possible... Even the top alone is 50-60lbs on a small sports car, 80-100lbs on larger coupes. I guess they don't figure in the sub-frame support.


It has occurred to me that the longer GM gets away with weight claims, the more insane the claims will get.


Edit: Dealer Brake Kit is $3200

 

[thePill]

All-new this year, America’s greaser Corvette sheds more than 200 pounds, shrinks in every major dimension, and transitions onto the same fine-handling Alpha rear-drive platform that sits beneath the Cadillac ATS and CTS. Both a coupe and a convertible are available, with Chevrolet claiming that the droptop’s weight penalty is just 55 pounds.

:lol:


You can obviously tell GM is marketing to people that don't know better. Maybe the actual top is a separate option? 155lbs I can see... 55lbs no... on a 3685lbs SS too :lol:

I hope these boast hold up in the real world. You know, after the customers pay you... these numbers should still be present ya' know.


I hate sounding like a broken record but...

The 3700lbs ATS-V was a myth, as was its performance. It's obvious GM cares nothing for real world results. They surely didn't let a 3809lbs base ATS-V bother their 3700lbs claim. GM isn't making any comments about the Boss 302 now, that is after Randy Pobst didn't turn a quicker time.


The ATS-V should have been enough warning and I have already stomped my foot at the 3685lbs. The 1SS is between 3780-3820lbs. And EVEN AT THAT WEIGHT, the Convertible gained more than 55lbs. 155lbs maybe... Truth be told, they feel if you are gullible enough to believe the claims, you are gullible enough to believe the convertible claim.

Why is SS and Vert weight important in a GT500 conversation? Because if people don't realize this shit now, I will need to repeat it again in April. The 3685lbs claim is playing with your intelligence... the 55lbs heavier claim is just insulting it...

 

[Twin Turbo]

ThePill.......your thoughts and insights are always welcome but I wonder where this thread may end up if it continues along these lines. Hopefully not locked like the last one. Whilst baiting GM fans may be good fun, it is unlikely to be good for this thread ;)

Lets face it, we don't even know if there IS a GT500 (or another halo car above/alongside GT350) yet. I know we all HOPE there is, but it's all theory and conjecture right now. And we're then comparing that to a car/s from GM that many don't trust the published numbers on. I can't see this thread ending well, and that would be a shame.

What WOULD be good is to narrow down that conjecture and that'll come once we start to see and hear mules out testing. And any 'Ring info you can glean will be more than welcomed. But don't compare it to anything yet, as we don't even know what it should be compared to! GT500 might end up a 4-cylinder hybrid, for all we know

There is a GT500 rumour thread already running. If we could start to use that one, hopefully we can keep it focused on just the car itself. We'll worry about the competition once we know its makeup.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15731&highlight=rumour+gt500

Just my thoughts

 

[Grimace427]

5.0 can only go out to a 5.3 IIRC. 5.4 is beyond the capability given the bore spacing

Weisco took the Coyote out to 5.8 with bore and stroke though nobody I've seen has actually done that in their street car. JPC has run prototypes IIRC.

 

[thePill]

ThePill.......your thoughts and insights are always welcome but I wonder where this thread may end up if it continues along these lines. Hopefully not locked like the last one. Whilst baiting GM fans may be good fun, it is unlikely to be good for this thread ;)

Lets face it, we don't even know if there IS a GT500 (or another halo car above/alongside GT350) yet. I know we all HOPE there is, but it's all theory and conjecture right now. And we're then comparing that to a car/s from GM that many don't trust the published numbers on. I can't see this thread ending well, and that would be a shame.

What WOULD be good is to narrow down that conjecture and that'll come once we start to see and hear mules out testing. And any 'Ring info you can glean will be more than welcomed. But don't compare it to anything yet, as we don't even know what it should be compared to! GT500 might end up a 4-cylinder hybrid, for all we know

There is a GT500 rumour thread already running. If we could start to use that one, hopefully we can keep it focused on just the car itself. We'll worry about the competition once we know its makeup.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15731&highlight=rumour+gt500

Just my thoughts

I know many here hate the little invasions, it certainly takes away from the discussion. But try to understand, if thePill wasn't so aggressive, they would be in every major thread discussion. The fact is, thePill bothers them... most don't have the courage to walk into a head on discussion with the most unreasonable individual on the internet. I have effectively cornered them into a few threads, have even turned some opinion AND, in my opinion, have provided enough details to make them uncomfortable.

When thePill doesn't post or takes some down time, they talk about him constantly. As soon as thePill comes back... silence...

You tell me TT, what would forum life be without thePill ;) it's a cruel approach sure but it's justified. Many people don't trust GM's official word because we laid it out in detail. A long process for sure...


The GT500 is coming and it will be just as heartbreaking to them as the '13 and the 350... we just need to get lucky... and rain in Germany isn't helping...

 

[Erik427]

I'm pretty sure we will see a Extreme HP version of the Stang. What it will be called is still a mystery. With GM and Mopar offering 650-707hp V-8s. I think we will see Ford step up to the plate.

 

[thePill]

I'm pretty sure we will see a Extreme HP version of the Stang. What it will be called is still a mystery. With GM and Mopar offering 650-707hp V-8s. I think we will see Ford step up to the plate.

There is no way Ford is going to break up the streamlined naming scheme they have going on. The GT, GT350 and GT500 is both heritage and it emulates some high end models. Keeping a theme is the easiest way to display a pecking order. The RSZLSSLT1LE/28 could be confusing to some... the M series BMW, The 9 series Porsche, C series Merc, 400 Ferrari and the DB's of Aston... all good examples, not the only ones.

A Turbo Coyote can easily be 650hp, I wouldn't mind a $59,995, 650hp GT500 base option. Offer a step up via Track or Performance Package and good to go. However, in order to flex their muscles, I think an 800+hp Twin Turbo GT500KR hits the spot. Could they do it for $69,995???

To be honest, it's only a two engine showcase here. Ford wants us to think it's going to be a TT 3.5 of some sort. Problem is, everyone has seen the engine. It's well known... The only issue with 3.5 liters, twin turbo or not, is beating the Challengers 707. Most would argue that it's important but, when engines are concerned, that's a number they want to beat. I'm sure the 3.5 could do 700... but I'm positive the Coyote can do more. The 500 won't come close to the FGT so, it's big angle will be its output...

I do think an Ecoboost 3.5 is coming to the Mustang, but it could be slotted between the EB 2.3 (in the future it will be a 2.0) and the 5.0 (potentially a 475+hp engine with DI.


That brings me to another point, when competing with the LT4 Camaro. At what lengths does Ford need to go to in order to beat it on paper? Horsepower is an area less likely to be fudged. Although, there are many areas they can. Magazine test are proving useless... If a vehicle performs wonderfully in the initial test it builds up buyer confidence. As we can see, the ATS-V hasn't even been in full circulation yet and we already see poor results from Randy Pobst himself. Ford could push the MSRP through the roof trying to beat a cheater...

The LT4 should have them concerned. The Z06's performance in that test as well as a few other places should have them very concerned. The LT1 has its issues but this is far beyond that. Cooling has now become a major talking point. I wish my word would have been heeded sooner. They seem to believe it's the auto equipped LT1's but, seeing some strange breakdowns throughout the entire LT series could be a sign of something else.

One thing is for sure, when I said the Camaro's front fascia design wasn't going to help, I was absolutely correct. We know about the 3 radiator system and the flow-tie aside, the LT4 Camaro has no bumper cover. This isn't typically something someone does to increase airflow... outside of local drifters that is... In fact, I'm not even sure that it is permitted. Can the car breathe now??? I would have went with something more ATS-V/'70 Camaro if I were them.

According to some members at C6, the car in the video could be wearing Carbon Ceramic Rotors. That on top of the usually $20,000 increase over the 1SS makes this the most expensive Camaro ever. CCB's are good, very, very good... but blue collar people are trying to buy this thing.

They will probably say the LT4 Camaro only gained 75lbs over the 1SS...

...how do you compete with that? How do you stop them from sending an ATS-V to a comparison that traps 122mph???

On paper... the Mustang is doomed...

 

[Twin Turbo]

I do think an Ecoboost 3.5 is coming to the Mustang, but it could be slotted between the EB 2.3 (in the future it will be a 2.0) and the 5.0 (potentially a 475+hp engine with DI.

You have my attention. That would be an awesome lineup for '18MY......along with a Halo-Stang

 

[Erik427]

Mach 1 with the new 3.5 TT pushing about 550hp and a healthy dose of bottom end torque. The 5.2 suffers in the low end tq dept. if you believe the recent reviews. Both motors weigh about the same, I think?

 

[thePill]

You have my attention. That would be an awesome lineup for '18MY......along with a Halo-Stang

With the 2.3 quickly finding extra power, I can see the 2.3 being reduced to a 2.0 to relieve some stress off of Euro buyers. I think it will still settle around 345hp.

The EB3.5 could easily slot into the lineup at 410-420hp. Essentially, the base lineup is separated by 1.5 liters, 2.0>3.5>5.0. I also feel the 5.2 will be dropped to a 5.0 to evade the Gas Guzzler Tax and maybe free up a little more RPM. Once DI/Dual Injection is adopted that is. It will still settle at 530hp and could see a slight torque increase using DI/DDI. We can do without the 5.2 and would benefit from the increased RPM using a slightly shorter stroke.

The GT500 will probably demonstrate more PTWA and I doubt they will settle at just 5.0.

I have always wanted a modern 5.5 liter V8. A twin turbo would be nice on top of that.

 

[thePill]

Mach 1 with the new 3.5 TT pushing about 550hp and a healthy dose of bottom end torque. The 5.2 suffers in the low end tq dept. if you believe the recent reviews. Both motors weigh about the same, I think?

If it doesn't contribute to the existing product line, I think it should be axed. The R&D money spent on say a Mach 1, Boss or Cobra Jet is better spent on the GT/350/500 or the R/KR variants. I'd rather see an honest attempt at a Mustang GTR package. They never followed up on the 2004 Mustang GTR concept AND, there is enough room between the GT and GT350. The $37,000-$48,000 bracket where they even need to be remotely concerned, even then it's down to a 1/4 mile race against an automatic.

Every 5 years people will get a chance to buy an Anniversary model, if any Mach/Boss/Cobra anything/SVO needs to exist, that is the time to do it. Merge the Special models into the Anniversary Package years (or the odd years). It makes them highly prestigious among the types that are looking for those nameplates to begin with.

 

[Erik427]

Pill, can you find out how much the new 3.5 TT weighs?

 

[Trackaholic]

Given the Raptor and GT being a TTV6 EcoBoost...it seems that Ford is positioning the top tier cars as being TTV6's

Thoughts on a 3,700lb 650hp/600 tq 10 speed GT500?

The Raptor doesn't have a 700 HP competitor. The FGT doesn't weigh over 3800 lbs. There is no way the GT500 will have a TTV6 (IMO).

As we can see, the ATS-V hasn't even been in full circulation yet and we already see poor results from Randy Pobst himself.

Randy was very impressed with the ATS-V in the BDC video. Why do you say the results are poor? The time is about the same as the BMW M4, and faster than the Boss 302 LS. Seems to be performing just fine.

-T

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