GT350 will live past 2019 with GT500 engine block!

[Muligan]

.... and that's all you've got.

#owned

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[Bcobb85]

Just going to throw this out there: the oil consumption is an inherent byproduct of the low tension piston rings that the voodoo motors use. The reason behind using low tension rings being to reduce friction for better performance. Sure, some owners had actual issues with excessive consumption but overall its not a design flaw, just a characteristic of low tension piston rings...similar to forged pistons having rattle when cold, you generally don't have one without the other. When designing the motor, my guess is that the engineers thought it was worth the additional oil consumption to run low tension rings. Obviously they didn't expect the level of blowback that they got from customers who expected it to run the same as a standard 5.0 on the streets without the additional monitoring/maintenance that this particular motor requires. For me personally, given the race tech that they used on the voodoo, I expected going in that i would have to monitor it more closely than I would a run of the mill street motor.

 

[Demonic]

No I don't. So that leads me to question the derivation of your statement "they had longevity issues."

Here you go, enjoy:
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/blown-engine-thread.104010/

I'm not sure if you're being serious. You know this is the most classic example of a deductive premise fallacy right? A group of subjects experience an outcome. You then see someone else change a methodology and conclude that the cause 'must' have been because of the group of people you witnessed, when there's no actual causal link. I'm assuming you know how frequently race engine designs get changed to better suite a set of rules, guidelines, or BOP requirements.

 

[Spart]

Just going to throw this out there: the oil consumption is an inherent byproduct of the low tension piston rings that the voodoo motors use. The reason behind using low tension rings being to reduce friction for better performance. Sure, some owners had actual issues with excessive consumption but overall its not a design flaw, just a characteristic of low tension piston rings...similar to forged pistons having rattle when cold, you generally don't have one without the other. When designing the motor, my guess is that the engineers thought it was worth the additional oil consumption to run low tension rings. Obviously they didn't expect the level of blowback that they got from customers who expected it to run the same as a standard 5.0 on the streets without the additional monitoring/maintenance that this particular motor requires. For me personally, given the race tech that they used on the voodoo, I expected going in that i would have to monitor it more closely than I would a run of the mill street motor.

If it's not on the ground or all over the outside of the motor, and it's not in your catch can, it's getting past the rings or the valve guides. Pretty simple.

 

[Spart]

blah blah blah

Man, this is a handy feature.

 

[Dusten]

Ford cant figure it out either lol. Maybe you should tell them.

Cant figure it out or won't tell you?

 

[Dusten]

I suspect that they had to make up some sort bull shite to cover up a problem, while still showing up with something to race that was reliable. That's what I think. Who the hell designs a radically different engine than the norm, takes several years of R&D and spends vast amounts of capital, initially races it then decides to go back to the way it used to be? A manufacturer who's identified a problem that's who. And on the other side you have customers who's cars are using excessive oil and seizing at a very low mileage. If that doesn't sound fishy to you, well you're a fan boy I guess.

Who said theyre going back?

 

[Mountain376]

I've been trying bite my tongue, but have to speak up, as Randy M is just spouting off with unsubstantiated conjecture that can't go unchallenged any longer. The GT350R-C (with FPC) did great in its first few races during the 2015 season and decisively won the Continental Tire SportsCar Challenge (IMSA) the following year. A great group of engineers and racers (KohR, Multimatic, Roush, Ford Performance, etc...) then developed that car further to compete with a broader range of sanctioning bodies and the car grew into the Mustang GT-4. That new ready-built race car did change from the FPC to a CPC, but it wasn't because the FPC was inherently bad or suffered too many failures (see the aforementioned championship), but rather because it was basically deemed overkill. Because the Voodoo engine was already well beyond the horsepower limits of the sanctioning bodies, the engineers and engine builders chose to de-tune the engine in a way that provided more low and mid-rang power. The reduction from high-strung configuration to more lazy power certainly resulted in less NVH, but was really the result of being able to make the class regulated output without needing to push the internals - in large part, because the engine had more displacement than other competitors.

Randy M - I get it - you're unhappy with the Voodoo. But if you're going to bash it, at least be factual.

Here's a good article on development and evolution of the GT4 as it grew out of the dominant GT350R-C program.

https://www.fordnxt.com/features/car-features/a-detailed-look-at-the-kohr-mustang-gt4-road-racer/

Did you know the FPC in the 350R-C had to be rebuilt before basically every race?

Do you know about the components that broke adapting the FPC to various race parts?

That is what drove away from FPC to CPC in the GT4 and FP350S.

Providing a more economical and robust product to racing customers.

BoP my ass. A CPC version of the Voodoo isn’t down on power to a FPC enough to center on that. What you read is the nice way stepping around reality.

The GT350R-C was suposed to replace the Boss 302R. It didn’t. It was also supposed to be available to customers. It never was. It stayed in Ford/Multimatic hands (even so under C360; they are basically neighbors).

 

[firestarter2]

Did you know the FPC in the 350R-C had to be rebuilt before basically every race?

Do you know about the components that broke adapting the FPC to various race parts?

That is what drove away from FPC to CPC in the GT4 and FP350S.

Providing a more economical and robust product to racing customers.

BoP my ass. A CPC version of the Voodoo isn’t down on power to a FPC enough to center on that. What you read is the nice way stepping around reality.

The GT350R-C was suposed to replace the Boss 302R. It didn’t. It was also supposed to be available to customers. It never was. It stayed in Ford/Multimatic hands (even so under C360; they are basically neighbors).

You realize what you said doesn't disagree with what he posted

 

[Mountain376]

You realize what you said doesn't disagree with what he posted

I’m stating some additional facts in the GT350R-C vs GT/FP350S discussion.

If you think it’s who-ha, to put some backing with this, here are a few published sources:
“The Multimatic-built car, the successor to the race-winning Mustang Boss 302R, shares a direct correlation to the race-inspired GT350R, which was launched at the North American International Auto Show in January.”

“The other important aspect of the GT350R-C is its flat crank, which has made the 5.2-liter V8 the most powerful normally aspirated engine Ford has ever produced for its production lineup.”
https://sportscar365.com/imsa/impc/inside-the-ford-shelby-mustang-gt350r-c/

“But the advantage was never exploited because a mere ten laps into his run Johnson reported that the exhaust had broken and a visit to the box confirmed that the header flange studs had failed. The flat-plane crank 5.2-litre motor generates more vibration than a conventional configuration and this adds stress to the exhaust, especially in racing conditions, but as a testament to the design of the car and the diligence of Ford Performance, this was the first failure of any GT350R-C component in competition usage.”
http://multimaticmotorsports.com/road-america-kind-multimatic-motorsports/

“C360R today released details of its much-anticipated return to the Continental Tire Sportscar Challenge GS-class. The squad will be the first customer team to compete with Ford’s new Mustang GT350R-C, and will field a full-season entry for drivers Paul Holton and Pierre Kleinubing.”

“We’re honoured to have been selected by the folks at Ford to be the first team to run the new Mustang, and are looking forward to working closely with Multimatic in continuing to develop the platform,” remarked Team Principal Karl Thomson.”
http://compassracing.com/entries/entry/c360r-launches-ctsc-gs-program-with-ford-mustang-gt350r-c

“One of three GT350R-C race cars that were manufactured by Multimatic Engineering

The only one that will ever be available for sale (one was destroyed on-track and the other is in Ford’s permanent collection).

Competed in IMSA's Continental Tire Sportscar Challenge:
• 2015 as the No. 158 Multimatic car driven by Jade Buford and Austin Cindric, winning at Mosport
• 2016 as the No. 76 Compass Racing car piloted by Paul Holton and Pierre Kleinubing, with best finishes of second at Daytona, third at Mosport and Circuit of the Americas, winning the Manufacturer's Championship for Ford.”
https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/98468/2015-ford-mustang-gt350r-c

 

[firestarter2]

What do you think that adds to the discussion?

I’m stating some additional facts in the GT350R-C vs GT/FP350S discussion.

If you think it’s who-ha, to put some backing with this, here are a few published sources:
“The Multimatic-built car, the successor to the race-winning Mustang Boss 302R, shares a direct correlation to the race-inspired GT350R, which was launched at the North American International Auto Show in January.”

“The other important aspect of the GT350R-C is its flat crank, which has made the 5.2-liter V8 the most powerful normally aspirated engine Ford has ever produced for its production lineup.”
https://sportscar365.com/imsa/impc/inside-the-ford-shelby-mustang-gt350r-c/

“But the advantage was never exploited because a mere ten laps into his run Johnson reported that the exhaust had broken and a visit to the box confirmed that the header flange studs had failed. The flat-plane crank 5.2-litre motor generates more vibration than a conventional configuration and this adds stress to the exhaust, especially in racing conditions, but as a testament to the design of the car and the diligence of Ford Performance, this was the first failure of any GT350R-C component in competition usage.”
http://multimaticmotorsports.com/road-america-kind-multimatic-motorsports/

“C360R today released details of its much-anticipated return to the Continental Tire Sportscar Challenge GS-class. The squad will be the first customer team to compete with Ford’s new Mustang GT350R-C, and will field a full-season entry for drivers Paul Holton and Pierre Kleinubing.”

“We’re honoured to have been selected by the folks at Ford to be the first team to run the new Mustang, and are looking forward to working closely with Multimatic in continuing to develop the platform,” remarked Team Principal Karl Thomson.”
http://compassracing.com/entries/entry/c360r-launches-ctsc-gs-program-with-ford-mustang-gt350r-c

“One of three GT350R-C race cars that were manufactured by Multimatic Engineering

The only one that will ever be available for sale (one was destroyed on-track and the other is in Ford’s permanent collection).

Competed in IMSA's Continental Tire Sportscar Challenge:
• 2015 as the No. 158 Multimatic car driven by Jade Buford and Austin Cindric, winning at Mosport
• 2016 as the No. 76 Compass Racing car piloted by Paul Holton and Pierre Kleinubing, with best finishes of second at Daytona, third at Mosport and Circuit of the Americas, winning the Manufacturer's Championship for Ford.”
https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/98468/2015-ford-mustang-gt350r-c

 

[roygriffin2020]

That is so gay...uh, I mean really gay....

 

[roygriffin2020]

Given the mounting reliability evidence week by week that the FPC has, and yet continuing to deny and refusing to believe that there's an issue, then attacking those who bring to light the problem of reliability and/or longevity of the FPC....the fan boy mob mentality displayed here is insane.

I agree with you somewhat on the FanBoy and people are hostile a little to "Camero" guys, but what people are getting sick of is your ranting on the people here almost more than Ford. If there is anyone on here that has more to pick at Ford and that is me. Ford Corp screwed me 3 times: on a new 1991 Ford F150, 2014 Mustang GT TP and 2016 GT350, all warranty issues where they would not fix them. But I have gotten over that and try to be respectful of people on here. I say this to you respectfully of course because I know you have been wronged, but you sound like the little kid that got a sticker in your foot and you keep whining about it instead of pulling it out. Get over it, respectfully of course. I know it takes time to do that, one day you will. But lighten up. These are just people who laid out their hard earned money for a nice car and they like it. They didn't build it. :-)

Commentary by Roy...

 

[jake_zx2]

Steeda got 435 wheel from a stock Bullitt. That's about 510 crank with 15% loss. Even with about 12% thats, 495HP.

Even just an 93 oct tune they are putting down 457whp/400wtq. That puts it in spitting distance of the GT350's dyno numbers with more TQ. For about 10k less.

If the 2021 GT makes BULLITT power and has PP2 handling, the GT350 is going to have to step up its game to make it's price difference worth it.

Personally I think that Ford should have released the PP@ and BULLITT performance increases on the same car. Would have been a nice middle finger to the SS 1LE.

Cutting out the middleman of attempting to calculate drivetrain loss...

Hot Rod, when putting a completely stock Gen 3 coyote on an engine dyno, found that it make 497hp. It's not hard to imagine that a Bullitt would make an extra 10-20 with the GT350 intake and manifold

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ford-5-0l-coyote-dyno-test-cai-e85-tune-makes-532-hp/

 

[Schwerin]

Just the JLT intake alone gave them 511, that's a 14HP gain itself. I'm sure the GT350 inlet may not flow as well as the JLT, but I would not be surprised if it is close. Then factor in a better flowing IM and larger TB. Even if the keep the same A/F and timing targets as the GT, it seem clear to me the Bullitt is more than just a 20HP gain.

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