GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

Its a complete pity some motorsports enthusiast cannot open a PDF file and read the documentation provided by IMSA. According to the CTSCC Rulebook, the Z/28.R is equipped with a 75mm inlet restriction, that would be a 15mm downsizing of the 90mm throttle body.

On the other side of the pits, the M3's 4.0 liter V8 was fitted with dual 36mm inlet restrictors, that is about a 40% air restriction. The Boss uses a 57mm tube (90mm stock). That is information right in the rulebook... The actual driver of the Stevenson z28 openly admitted the car was "detuned" and only made 470RWHP. That's a shame because the entire class is limited to under 405RWHP however, with restrictions, the class is limited to 350-370rwhp per IMSA's website.

To be honest, when I see some poor sap defending the car, I just write them off... I personally believe the z28 should have not been allowed to class in CTSCC. Now that I have read a quote from one of the class drivers about the z28 in general, I know I'm not crazy. In fact, it makes those defending this piggy quite entertaining. Seriously, if you need that much help from the organization and still need to cheat here and there, why are you even out there? To destroy the only shred of factory racing left in the world? Or are you just so caught up in advertising you care little or nothing about heritage or competition? It's super embarrassing I know that...

I'm sure he has all the links necessary to prove what he says is true.

Or are we just supposed to take his word for it.

So far, I'm not convinced.

This has been discussed in great detail since January 2014 on this very site. This thread and the z28 Assault Thread has some information on the Pratt/Miller built z28's. You are just incredibly late to this discussion.

Here is something I would be into, only if the Le Mans GT350 isn't a tube framed shadow of the actual GT350.R in CTSCC and PWA.

There’s a lot of backchannel chatter about Ford and the 24 Hours of Le Mans. We hear a P2 proposal is out there, just waiting to be approved. For a number of reasons, it makes sense. We also heard that someone inside floated the idea of a GT campaign, timed to to coincide with the Mustang’s 50th anniversary, but got shut down. But minds can be changed. Here’s why we think a Ford Mustang needs to run against the world’s best GT cars at the world’s greatest endurance race.

1. The car would be spectacular
Sure, the spaceships in P1 are cool, and the insectine P2 cars have their appeal, but the GT cars evoke an entirely different sort of passion. It’s easy to see why—they’re based on real production sports cars. You know them. You see them on the street. And if you have the means, you can buy them.
They’re also wicked-looking in all the right ways. A GTE-class Mustang would be no different. The drawing above, created for us by the immensely talented Andy Blackmore, shows what a proper factory Le Mans Mustang might look like—wide, mean, and confident. With the impending arrival of the new Shelby GT350, Ford has a legitimate halo car on which to base the racer, too.

2. From a marketing perspective, it’s a no-brainer
We’re in the midst of the Mustang’s 50th anniversary celebration, with the brand-new car landing in showrooms later this year. Interest is at a fever pitch, and the announcement of a Le Mans program would ramp it up even further.

Also remember that the 2015 Mustang finally goes global. Ford’s pony car will be sold in Europe, meaning a competition version at Le Mans wouldn’t just be an American-market novelty act. Race attendees would be able to buy their own. Ford knows that as well as anyone. Win on Sunday …
Meanwhile, stateside race fans would get to see it run against the GT big guns in the TUDOR United SportsCar Championship. Don’t think IMSA wouldn’t love to have Mustang in the mix on that race calendar.

3. Ford vs. Chevy (and Ferrari, and Porsche, and Aston Martin)
Look past P1 with its insane lunar-mission budgets and bleeding-edge technology, and it’s undeniable: The next most attractive class is GTE, thanks to the heavy manufacturer involvement. You'd have instant, juicy rivalries.
Corvette, Porsche, Ferrari, and Aston Martin all have factory-backed teams in the GTE slugfest. It only gets better if Dodge returns with its works Vipers after taking a sabbatical this year.

There’d be no shortage of “villains” for the Mustang faithful to root against and gloat over if Ford were to pull off a win.
Ford in P2 should be great, but it's not the same. A Ford-engined prototype vs. Honda, Nissan, and Judd power just doesn’t have the same cachet as, say, Mustang vs. Corvette.

4. The history is waiting to be written
There’s great Le Mans history tied to Ford and Carroll Shelby, but it’s not about the Mustang. We all know about the GT40’s incredible run from ’66 to ‘69 and about the legendary 1964 Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupe.
The Mustang? No success.
In 1967, a Shelby GT350 driven by the Belgian team of Claude Dubois and Chris Tuerlinckx completed just 58 laps. 30 years later, Steve Saleen went to Le Mans and fielded a pair of his Saleen-Allen Speedlab Mustang RRR race cars. Both were DNFs.
Ford has had great success with the Mustang in sports-car racing—think of the legendary Trans-Am cars as well as the wild IMSA GTO and GTP monsters—but it’s got no history on the sport’s grandest stage.
It’s time to change that.
Send the Mustang to Le Mans, and race to win.

Sponsored

 

[Tim Hilliard]

Some of the information posted is misleading. Z28 is running a 68MM donut, it's limited to 6100RPM and has to weigh 3550.

Compared to the Boss which is limited to 8000RPM and has to weigh 3335-3360.

IMSA is run by a bunch of morons. The series has been dead to me save for some of the teams running in it THIS YEAR. My displeasure with IMSA aside I have not found any evidence of GM 'cheating' This is the rule they hit with: 2.1.9. Competitors and Manufacturers are expected to provide valid data upon request to assist
IMSA in the AoP process. Any Competitor or manufacturer who deliberately gives false
information, attempts to influence the AoP process, or displays a level of performance
beyond the expected result may be issued a penalty prior to, during, or after a Race of a
minimum Stop + 5 minutes. A penalty assessed prior to or during the Race must be served
within the final 30 minutes of the Race, regardless of the time when the infraction was
discovered and/or the penalty communicated. Penalties assessed after the Race are added
to the Car’s finishing time for the Race and may include a lap count penalty. As per NASCAR...I mean IMSA it's purposely vague. Shank got nailed with one similar to this last year after the 24. He was hit with manipulation of the Nascar Dyno. We get it, people on the forum have some strong dislike for other brands. But some of the comments are a little ridiculous. Teams all have to run sealed engines from specific suppliers. It's not like the teams are purposely doing something, not saying they aren't but the details are a little sketchy. I know the sport well enough to know that drivers comments need to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[TexArmageddon]

Its a complete pity some motorsports enthusiast cannot open a PDF file and read the documentation provided by IMSA. According to the CTSCC Rulebook, the Z/28.R is equipped with a 75mm inlet restriction, that would be a 15mm downsizing of the 90mm throttle body.

On the other side of the pits, the M3's 4.0 liter V8 was fitted with dual 36mm inlet restrictors, that is about a 40% air restriction. The Boss uses a 57mm tube (90mm stock). That is information right in the rulebook... The actual driver of the Stevenson z28 openly admitted the car was "detuned" and only made 470RWHP. That's a shame because the entire class is limited to under 405RWHP however, with restrictions, the class is limited to 350-370rwhp per IMSA's website.

To be honest, when I see some poor sap defending the car, I just write them off... I personally believe the z28 should have not been allowed to class in CTSCC. Now that I have read a quote from one of the class drivers about the z28 in general, I know I'm not crazy. In fact, it makes those defending this piggy quite entertaining. Seriously, if you need that much help from the organization and still need to cheat here and there, why are you even out there? To destroy the only shred of factory racing left in the world? Or are you just so caught up in advertising you care little or nothing about heritage or competition? It's super embarrassing I know that...

This has been discussed in great detail since January 2014 on this very site. This thread and the z28 Assault Thread has some information on the Pratt/Miller built z28's. You are just incredibly late to this discussion.

Here is something I would be into, only if the Le Mans GT350 isn't a tube framed shadow of the actual GT350.R in CTSCC and PWA.

well for me finding the PDF.. was just ridiculous that's why I asked... I ended up finding it though after much effort..

http://www.imsa.com/imsa-rules-and-regulations.. Looking at it though it seems that they have or will reduce the Camaro to 68mm
That's if I'm reading all this right. Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[traxiii]

Not to change the subject, but you think we are safe to say that the following claim on the Chevrolet web site is about to be blown to bits when the GT350 comes out? And with 30% less displacement, and twice the number of valves.
7.0L V8 Engine
This hand-assembled engine is the most powerful normally aspirated regular-production small-block V8 ever.
Produces 505 hp @ 6100 rpm and 481 lb-ft of torque @ 4800 rpm
Boasts a redline level of 7000 rpm, thanks to its highest-quality parts and precision assembly

 

[souprmage]

This has been discussed in great detail since January 2014 on this very site. This thread and the z28 Assault Thread has some information on the Pratt/Miller built z28's. You are just incredibly late to this discussion.

Yes, clearly I'm late to the discussion. I also don't have endless time on my hands to go do all the research you have. Does that mean I don't care about it? Most certainly not.

The tone of your responses also doesn't help those of us that are interested to learn more.

I'll certainly never defend that pig of a car. However, I'm also not going to assume your attacks on the car are valid without you providing links to the proof. Without providing these references (as anyone with a valid argument is expected to do), you come off as a Ford Fanboi, not as someone with a legitimate complaint.

I'm also not saying you're wrong. But I'm also not going to assume you're right until some references are given. Much like I called BS to a FoxNews reporter this weekend when she claimed the forest fire across the hill from me was 100% contained, when in fact it was only 20% contained and her unverified twitter post was entirely premature and I asked her to provide references to official statements that it was contained. To which she responded that she had made a mistake and it wasn't contained at all.

If I didn't care to know if you were right or not, I'd never have posted in this thread. I want to see the Mustang (and all cars in the class for that mater) be competitive just as much as you do, and I'd love to be educated on why that's not possible at the moment.

EDIT: Is there a more appropriate thread where this series is discussed? If so, I'll gladly go there to read up. I've just not seen it. If there isn't, perhaps we should make one.

 

[JoeDogInKC]

I will give thePill this much. He has stuck to his guns throughout the year, and while he hasn't provided much in the way of the sources you are asking about, it does seem that he has been mostly right given recent information coming to light.

 

[thePill]

Some of the information posted is misleading. Z28 is running a 68MM donut, it's limited to 6100RPM and has to weigh 3550.

Compared to the Boss which is limited to 8000RPM and has to weigh 3335-3360.

IMSA is run by a bunch of morons. The series has been dead to me save for some of the teams running in it THIS YEAR. My displeasure with IMSA aside I have not found any evidence of GM 'cheating' This is the rule they hit with: 2.1.9. Competitors and Manufacturers are expected to provide valid data upon request to assist
IMSA in the AoP process. Any Competitor or manufacturer who deliberately gives false
information, attempts to influence the AoP process, or displays a level of performance
beyond the expected result may be issued a penalty prior to, during, or after a Race of a
minimum Stop + 5 minutes. A penalty assessed prior to or during the Race must be served
within the final 30 minutes of the Race, regardless of the time when the infraction was
discovered and/or the penalty communicated. Penalties assessed after the Race are added
to the Car’s finishing time for the Race and may include a lap count penalty. As per NASCAR...I mean IMSA it's purposely vague. Shank got nailed with one similar to this last year after the 24. He was hit with manipulation of the Nascar Dyno. We get it, people on the forum have some strong dislike for other brands. But some of the comments are a little ridiculous. Teams all have to run sealed engines from specific suppliers. It's not like the teams are purposely doing something, not saying they aren't but the details are a little sketchy. I know the sport well enough to know that drivers comments need to be taken with a grain of salt.

At the beginning of the season, the z28 was mandated to wear an 80mm restrictor tube. As many witnessed, the z28 had issues, mostly maiden season fixes and crashes. After some stronger finishes, the z28's restrictor was increased to 70mm, after some poor finishes, they went back up to 75mm. Now, since the z28 just won 3 in a row (total of 5 this season), IMSA took them down to a 68mm... I believe last race or this coming race will be the first to use a 68mm tube. I take it a donut and tube are the same restrictor?

Regardless, the damage has already been done. It was set up that way specifically for the z28 to finally win a championship. The action taken against Team Camaro had to been for something, they don't take 26 points away for nothing. As I said, even after all the help from IMSA, the rumor of them cheating doesn't surprise me at all. If they are bold enough to cheat in professional racing, then they are no doubt doing the same sh!t in magazine comparisons AND, especially the Nurburgring video's. Once a cheat, always a cheat and the action taken against Chevy is even further proof they can't build a car.

During the 2011 season, the Boss won 6 races, NONE of those wins were back to back. Upon the 3rd win, Grand Am mandated a 52mm restrictor... When oh when is that gonna happen on the 7 liter z28? It probably won't because quite honestly, the 5th Gen Camaro is a horrible road racing platform. Anyone that bought into this marketing angle for the car is a 1st class sucker...

well for me finding the PDF.. was just ridiculous that's why I asked... I ended up finding it though after much effort..

http://www.imsa.com/imsa-rules-and-regulations[/URL].. Looking at it though it seems that they have or will reduce the Camaro to 68mm
That's if I'm reading all this right. Correct me if I'm wrong

Sorry Tex, that was more towards Soup as he was forced to "take my word for it". It looks like those 3 back to back to back wins earned them another 7mm's of air flow restriction. It's still not as large as the 5.0 liter Boss 302's. The reason being... the Camaro can't do it without help... and cheating... and crippling the entire field... and bringing a much bigger engine... and using primarily 3rd party performance upgrades from Pratt.

If I were a Camaro fan, I probably would just keep my mouth shut.

Yes, clearly I'm late to the discussion. I also don't have endless time on my hands to go do all the research you have. Does that mean I don't care about it? Most certainly not.

The tone of your responses also doesn't help those of us that are interested to learn more.

I'll certainly never defend that pig of a car. However, I'm also not going to assume your attacks on the car are valid without you providing links to the proof. Without providing these references (as anyone with a valid argument is expected to do), you come off as a Ford Fanboi, not as someone with a legitimate complaint.

I'm also not saying you're wrong. But I'm also not going to assume you're right until some references are given. Much like I called BS to a FoxNews reporter this weekend when she claimed the forest fire across the hill from me was 100% contained, when in fact it was only 20% contained and her unverified twitter post was entirely premature and I asked her to provide references to official statements that it was contained. To which she responded that she had made a mistake and it wasn't contained at all.

If I didn't care to know if you were right or not, I'd never have posted in this thread. I want to see the Mustang (and all cars in the class for that mater) be competitive just as much as you do, and I'd love to be educated on why that's not possible at the moment.

EDIT: Is there a more appropriate thread where this series is discussed? If so, I'll gladly go there to read up. I've just not seen it. If there isn't, perhaps we should make one.

Tone... it is nearly impossible to read my tone or anyone's tone for that matter and, my time is limited as well. I don't have endless time to re-link everything pertaining to the Z/28.R from this year. Like many others on these forums, there is absolutely NO time to gather facts but just enough time to type out my lengthy opinion... My disclaimer goes like this; thePill's threads, post and replies are for information (lol, entertainment I meant) purposes ONLY...

I understand your position though... When you need an answer then ask a question. Under no circumstances should anyone come in and "take my word for it" although, you would probably get an actually answer if your "tone" wasn't so... But I get it, its kool if you come at me with your "tone" but when I drag you out and return fire, your the victim... Another one of my disclaimers; Any thread, post or reply with "thePill" associated with it should be approached in thick skin...

Anyway... your original question was, why can't everyone in the class be competitive?

1.) The LS7 is 2 FULL liters larger than the 2nd largest engine.

2.) Pratt and Miller substituted all the OEM equipment out (that I warned everyone about a year ago) with aftermarket Pratt/Miller components. This includes all the suspension, brakes AND transmission

3.) Chevy could be cheating, unfortunately, this is becoming quite common.

4.) The z28 is within 100lbs of the 2nd heaviest vehicle and used Carbon Fiber body panels to do it.

5.) Unfortunately, the class maximum horsepower output is 405RWHP. That said, with the smaller displacement turbo engines, ALL vehicles in the class are limited to 350-370RWHP. That wouldn't be so bad if the LS7 used in the Stevenson z28.R didn't initially put down 470RWHP with an 80mm restrictor. That is 100 more RWHP than the 2nd strongest engine and only penalized a whopping 70lbs.

Most of the Motorsport conversation is centered around thePill's threads, there will eventually be a Motorsports section once the S550 begins to compete.

 

[FATTBoss]

thePill,

The quote that I included in my text was from a Facebook topic posted by a GS driver on my timeline, and then commented on by an ST driver. The topic was since removed by the original poster, so I do not feel comfortable saying who it was. There must have been a reason he had to take it down. Perhaps IMSA threatened the driver(s)?

I predict the Z/28 won't run very good at all at the final race of the season.

 

[thePill]

thePill,

The quote that I included in my text was from a Facebook topic posted by a GS driver on my timeline, and then commented on by an ST driver. The topic was since removed by the original poster, so I do not feel comfortable saying who it was. There must have been a reason he had to take it down. Perhaps IMSA threatened the driver(s)?

I predict the Z/28 won't run very good at all at the final race of the season.

Yeah, just keep the names to yourself, its for the best. It just sorta confirms how I felt and was very open about in January. I was uncomfortable with the z28 being in the class from day 1.

This was one of my main concerns I address here on the regular. I appreciate the transcript though, it made me feel that my complaint was valid and I wasn't overdoing it... Or, extremely misleading the members that read here and just purely building hate. I hope this is proof that most of my endeavors here, though d!ckish, for the most part, is as honest and true as I can type it.

Forget anyone who says different...

 

[OppoLock]

2014 Motor Trend Best Driver's Car

Best Of Times: This Year's Competitor's Are Better Than Ever

1st Place: Chevrolet Camaro Z/28

Zero to Hero
By: Scott Evans


If you'd asked us five years ago whether the then-all-new Chevrolet Camaro would be invited to Best Driver's Car, we would have scoffed. Had you suggested that a Camaro would win Best Driver's Car, we'd have all had a good belly laugh at the very notion. Who's laughing now? The transformation of the fifth-generation Camaro from "musclecar that handles pretty well" to Best Driver's Car winner is astounding. Few other cars we can think of have made such an advance in a single generation. Says Lieberman, "Perhaps the Corvair, but even by 1965 it wasn't anywhere near this good." Nowhere is this more evident than in driver confidence. Many a judge remarked on the ease and speed with which they became comfortable pushing the car hard on our closed canyon road. Mortara was especially smitten: "This was the only car here I could drive as hard down 198 as I could up it." We also were impressed with how incredibly high the car's limits are and how much fun we could have behind the wheel without coming anywhere near them. With the computers engaged or sidelined, the Z/28's world-class handling highlights the hard work Al Oppenheiser's Camaro team did to the chassis and suspension on the meanest track of them all, the Nüburgring Nordschleife.





You don't have to kill the nannies to appreciate the ground-up approach to this car. You can feel it in the steering, which is light and razor-sharp but still provides meaningful feedback from the massive front tires and weights up appropriately as g-loads increase. You can feel it in the arrow-straight power curve that builds and builds and builds as the screaming, free-revving, naturally aspirated 7.0-liter V-8 races to redline faster than any pushrod engine has a right to. You can feel it in the monstrous, fadeless carbon-ceramic brakes that always returned a firm pedal and usable feel. You can feel it in the light, crisp shifter that easily outclassed any other manual present with short, precise throws. You can feel it in the Recaro seats, which hold you firmly in place but are still comfortable at the end of a 400-mile drive. Most important, you feel the superior engineering in how the car responds to inputs both internal and external. From within, the car reacts immediately and precisely to your commands but doesn't punish you for minor mistakes. From the outside, the Z/28's suspension attacks bumps and dips with an unbridled passion for keeping the tires on the pavement. Yes, the ride is very stiff and you feel every one of those bumps, but they don't unsettle the car and they don't test your nerve. Says Lieberman vis-à-vis bumps, "One and done." In fact, it feels as though the car is bowling right through the bumps and actively flattening the road as it goes, as if the car is punishing the road for punishing you. On the track, every impression above is simply elevated. With the first turn of the wheel you become confident in the Z/28. With the second, you're ready to set a hot lap. There is no learning curve. Per Randy: "There's kind of not a bad corner for this car. I've never felt a car grip up so much halfway through Turn 9. Turn 9 is downhill and when it levels out I could corner harder. Cars are kind of floaty here. This one, not so bad, but it feels like with the speed it's carrying it's not going to grip up. And it did. It would land and grip up and I could roar, just go for it." Yes, it's a Camaro and still hard to see out of, and, yes, more than one editor complained about keeping such a big, wide car between the lines, but these issues become easy to forgive at the first turn of a great road. The Camaro Z/28 is the revered, old-school formula for speed writ large: big motor, bigger brakes, manual transmission, and a chassis tuned to race without any digital help. Greater than the sum of its parts, though, the Z/28 is a car in which how hard you smile is directly correlated to how hard you're driving it, and for that, it's Motor Trend's 2014 Best Driver's Car.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/..._motor_trends_best_drivers_car/#ixzz3ELL3seVD
​

 

[w3rkn]

* Car crash * Aliens land * People from middle-earth discovered * free-revving, naturally aspirated 7.0-liter V-8 races to redline faster than any pushrod engine has a right to * Dolphin President leads 27 nations to missing wreck *, ..etc.

wait stop^!

:lol::lol:
...did he say 7.0-liter V-8..?




Hillbilly refinement: I bet Ford can make a 9.0-liter..
( :mullet: )+( :mullet = :mullet:

 

[OppoLock]

* Car crash * Aliens land * People from middle-earth discovered * free-revving, naturally aspirated 7.0-liter V-8 races to redline faster than any pushrod engine has a right to * Dolphin President leads 27 nations to missing wreck *, ..etc.

wait stop^!

:lol::lol:
...did he say 7.0-liter V-8..?




Hillbilly refinement: I bet Ford can make a 9.0-liter..
( :mullet: )+( :mullet = :mullet:

I'm not going to lie, an LS7 is one of my top ten engines. What's not to love? Compact size, massive lungs, good top end and a fuel cutoff just over seven grand. It sounds good and can pull a tree stump out of the ground.

I can't wait to see how the 5.2L V8 Ford's got cooking stacks up. It has a lot of work to do.

 

[1320']

Lets not bash the LS7..it's a great engine. Could Ford and Mopar build an equally impressive engine? Of course! The 6.4L Hemi is getting darn close to the LS7 in power (485hp 475 tq in current production tune) and I have no doubt that if the Coyote family of motors could accommodate large displacement (vs the displacement cap they live with) you would also see 6+L motors..

So...LS7=great motor
but..

LS7=not impossible to match

 

[souprmage]

If Ford can make a 5.2l engine as competitive as the LS7, the LS7 should be bashed and bashed to no end. But that isn't going to happen. Not in NA form.

I'm still not sure why you say they're 'cheating' though. I'll grant you that the team is better at politics than any other. They pulled one over on IMSA and got a very favorable BOP for much of the season. I'll also agree it's absurd it was even considered for that class with the ci being so vastly different to begin with.

Unfair advantage, sure, but that's not their fault. I'd do the same thing if I were them. Perhaps you have other insider information though that would indicate they're cheating beyond taking advantage of IMSAs officials.

 

[SssnakeCharmer]

Just found this over at C5. What do you guys think about this motor trend article? "On the Chevrolet Camaro do the tires make the car?" "Camaro Z/28 and 1LE swap rubber to find out" http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...o_the_tires_make_the_car/braking_skidpad.html

Sponsored