GT350 vs. Z/28

[GTByte]

No, I do not wish they did more with the Boss 302, that's part of the issue here. I've said before, the Boss 302 was just a bit over-engineered. It eventually got the car slapped with major restriction in both Grand Am and SCCA PWC. The Boss had one major limitation, a rulebook.

The blame definitely lays on IMSA's shoulders, the SCCA needs a kick in the ass too.

I remember this.

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[souprmage]

Was that played live during the broadcast?

That's pretty powerful stuff.

 

[GTByte]

Was that played live during the broadcast?

That's pretty powerful stuff.

I don't think so. I doubt NBC Sports, WC or their sponsors would have aired such a protest. It would have looked bad for WC. Gathering from the notes and video it looks like just the hired videographers personal interview recorded during the day of the protest. This was back in 2012. I did not see the live broadcast so I'm not 100% positive on this. But here's more info from the video description.

---
Published on Aug 5, 2012

Today in SCCA World Challenge GTS competition the Ford Mustang Boss 302 contingency staged a protest against the series by parking their cars in pit lane after the initial formation lap. The reason for the protest was actually twofold.

The primary reason for the protest was driven by high engine temperatures caused by the very small restrictor the Boss 302 GTS Mustang is required to run to reduce the horsepower of the Mustang. This causes unusually high engine temperatures and all Mustangs were experiencing high engine coolant and oil temperatures. Two Mustangs failed to finish due to engine related issues. Some engine oil temperatures were in excess of 310°F which is quite a bit higher than normal. Engine coolant temperatures ranged from 240°F to 280°F. This is significantly higher than normal operating temperatures and puts the engine's computer into protect mode. This demonstrates that the restrictor has a compounding effect on the Mustang's ability to make horsepower and be competitive. The competitors collectively chose not to race their cars rather than risk further damage to the engines in their cars.

The secondary purpose of the protest was to bring attention to the current rules package for the Boss Mustang. The series has a very difficult task in trying to create parity between vastly different vehicle makes that achieve lap times in vastly different ways. Some have a power advantage, some have a stopping advantage, some have handling advantages, etc... The Mustang owners and drivers collectively and unanimously feel that the SCCA's method of creating parity is not working and leaves the Mustang with a significant handicap in many areas, and an advantage in NO area. The Boss Mustang teams held meetings with series officials throughout the Mid-Ohio event in an attempt to regain some level of competitiveness, but those discussions proved fruitless. The teams collectively felt that their voices were not being heard and staged a protest to bring more attention to this matter.

The top finishing Mustang in Saturday's race was 10thplace. The fastest lap time of the fastest Mustang was some 1.4 seconds slower than the front running cars. All of the top six cars were greater than one-second clear of all Mustangs. The three fastest Mustangs were within 0.1 seconds of each other. This demonstrates that there is a clear disparity between the Mustang and all other makes.

The following teams agree the use of inlet restrictors are the direct cause of the extensive engine overheating issues leading to eventual failures. In consideration of the high replacement costs of a new Boss 302 engine and the replacement of failed components due to the high heat stresses being applied to these engines, and the resultant safety issues stemming from exhaust fumes entering the car, it is agreed SCCA must stop its parity by restricting the Fords.

Failures of note are:

Tiger Racing: Two engine failures due to catastrophic engine over-temps

JVK Motorsports: Elevated ECT

Rehagen Racing: Exhaust Manifold blowout, cracking and extreme driver compartment heat.

GSP Racing: Extreme Driver compartment heat enough to melt the rubber soles of driver's shoes.

Autosports Development: Elevated ECT

R & C Motorsports: Exhaust manifold failures

Motorsports Development Group: Elevated ECT 272 degrees and throwout bearing meltdown.

 

[thePill]

Looks like a January 2015 debut, perhaps a Detroit Auto Show and Daytona CTSCC event with media in between.

from what I hear, I don't think GS is the class they have in mind here. I think Ford may use a GT.R in GS to replace the Boss 302.R. The new GT's performance should make.it very competitive with the M4. I just don't see any room for it in CTSCC GS with the z28.R...

...I think that would be quite funny if Ford considers the GT to be its z28 killer. I must say, if the GTPP is suppose to be faster than the Boss 302LS at Laguna... Randy just did a 1:37.8 in a z28... R&T got a 1:39.5 in a '12 Boss...

I will double over laughing if Randy gets within a 1/2 a second of the z28 in a GT.

AND, you can race a GT EVERYWHERE!!! According to the new Ford Racing Drag video, the S550's IRS HOOKS!!!

No limitations really...

 

[GTByte]

Randy just did a 1:37.8 in a z28... R&T got a 1:39.5 in a '12 Boss...

I will double over laughing if Randy gets within a 1/2 a second of the z28 in a GT.

AND, you can race a GT EVERYWHERE!!! According to the new Ford Racing Drag video, the S550's IRS HOOKS!!!

No limitations really...

That would be funny even if they shave off 2 seconds. A good set of OEM summer tires and the new front and rear suspension can trim off a few fraction of a second each corner. They add up.

It's harder to find 2011-2014 GT times for most of the tracks. But here's some comparisons. Does anyone have the GT pre-2014 times for Laguna? Not for the Boss 302. But for the standard 5.0 GT?

Barber Motorspots Park:
2014 Nissan GT-R Track Edition, 1:36.45
2014 Camaro z28, 1:36.17

Streets of Willow Springs:
2013 Mustang GT, 1:25.77
2013 Camaro SS, 1:23.70

Streets of Willow Springs:
2011 Mustang GT, 1:27.76
2011 BMW M3 Coupe, 1:27.67

MRC road course in Milford, MI:
2013 Mustang Boss 302, 1:59.05
2014 Camaro z28, 1:53.71

 

[souprmage]

Thanks GTByte, that was a good read.

Hopefully 2015 will be the year of the Mustang.

It will definitely be interesting to see the times at LS. More of a handling track than most but a couple runs up hills to add a bit of grunt into the mix.

 

[thePill]

We got to see some 6 Gen Camaro spy pics from Nurburgring, some padding still being used but not much. It was a very safe redesign, well... not really a redesign as far as style. I believe the Zeta platform was so bad in the performance category that they literally had to redesign the platform for the Camaro.

Hot Rod is saying that the wheelbase should be almost be exactly the same as the ATS's 109.5. They are also saying the Camaro is using 20 inch wheels (Not good) and those measurements are based on a 20 inch wheel.

There isn't even a guesstimate on weight at this point... Looking at industry trends, it will be lucky if it can match the 3920lbs the SS is at now, even with a smaller wheelbase. According to one of my media sources, they anticipate a lot of drivetrain, suspension and brake weight that will be gained. There is also an anticipated weight gain in the interior and supporting components. I expect a larger weight gain than the Corvette in this area, it is rumored that the V8 trim cars get a nice amp/speaker setup like the Mustang.

According to my sources, shell for shell, the Alpha Camaro's structure is between 100-200lbs lighter than the Zeta. This would suggest that maybe the wheelbase did in fact come down. If they remained at 112.5 AND, they did in fact lose 200lbs in the structure, that would be an incredible feat. From my guesswork, it may be in for a slight weight loss in the base model V6 if certain conditions exist. If Chevy makes the 6 Way adjustable, heated/cooled electric seats standard, I doubt there will be a lighter 6th Gen Camaro. I'm still waiting on airbag and safety information as well as IRS pics and an official wheelbase.

This was pretty much the only logical direction the Camaro could have traveled. There was absolutely no chance Chevy would attempt to restyle the Camaro. I knew the T4 Bumblebee was grounds for something, GM did the clay, I figured it would pop up somewhere. The tall doors and humongous rear C pillar area has returned and I assume bad rearward visibility. The 2014's front fascia continues to evolve towards the T4 Bumblebee. A lot of the panel mass and design is shared with the ATS, the front bumper support is different, the Caddy's fascia provides more airflow to the actual radiator...the Camaro pictured on page 1 provides the maximum amount of airflow to the AC condenser...

I am relieved the Mustang paid attention to cooling this time. Chevy needs to raise that grill somehow, nothing good can ever come from that.

I've got my people watching the Camaro, although, I didn't get anything meaningful as far as lap times and such. I was privy to some GT350 pics and video a few weeks ago. I was looking forward to timing some laps from the event and informed you guys I would do what I could. I am not permitted to time any video I may have or will see. I was told we will see an official Nurburgring time from Ford this time. I told her "NOT LIKELY".... We shall see... Oh yes, we shall see...

Not digging the 2016 Camaro so far... Did anyone think that I would?

Edit: I missed a trip to Detroit this week, I am currently working on the fringe of the industry, mostly R&D. Not performance, specifically NVH... I got to talk to some personnel about the GT350 and, as usual, I got some questions off about Ol' Porky Pig. Nothing about higher tier Camaro's but most of what we discussed was "In General".

At the time, I was convinced the Camaro would have C7 styling cues. I mean, they would be very obvious and, it would bring Chevy's sports car and sports coupe closer together. Now that I have seen the car, I know why I wasn't getting answers. The sides are once again bold, very bold. Those bold barn doors encourage, what appears to be an even higher belt line now. The all congregates at the rear into a mass of a rear area... Its big I tell ya'...

Now, most of my questions were about weight, I wasn't aware of the aero testing at the time. The main focus was the Alpha's structure... The Alpha is nothing more than your typical uni-body platform, the reason the belt line is so high is due to the Alpha's basic layout. I wanted to know where the weight would come off from... These emails were from Sunday morning...

 

[thePill]

Waiting on the Weight...

Okay, I understand what you're getting at. You cannot compare the two because they are vastly different in almost every area. I would say no and there is a very good reason for that and XXXXXX agrees. It gets more and more difficult to actually shed weight in the industry today. You have seen the list of standard equipment the competitor’s offer, if being lighter is more important than standard equipment then it is doable, at least on the base model. If you honestly think they are not scratching and clawing for every gram, you’re mistaken.

That would be a good start but do you think they are willing to fall behind in that area? This is something I have discussed with XXXXXX and XXXX on several occasions and I think XXXX was on to it before anyone else. So, the short answer would be no.

That would be a miracle. I can't say for sure if it is but, making the vehicle smaller is the first step toward weight reduction. Ford used the new IRS system to help with rear cabin space, they did not want to decrease the wheelbase at all. Same with the Camaro. If it does end up being smaller, you know for sure that weight was an issue right off the bat.

I don't think that's possible. It would help if they didn't need to use a V8 of any kind, if weight is gained, most of the weight will come from support. The structural reinforcement adds up fast, coupled with drivetrain weight and the car is well beyond the rumored structural losses.

That is a question for XXXX but I am sure it is far too early for that. You're assuming that it is already or will be and how did that work out for the Mustang? I personally don't think that it will.

 

[JohnZiraldo]

I think it is now safe to say that the 2016 Camaro will not:
- weigh significantly less than the 2015 Mustang.
- provide a stunning new look to upstage the all new 2015 Mustang.
- have a new chassis that blows away the new 2015 Mustang chassis on the track.
- be more marketable to the rest of the world than the 2015 Mustang.

 

[traxiii]

Hey Pill, if the GT350 is not destined for GS, are they looking at GTD or GTLM, as well as maybe the WC?

 

[thePill]

I think it is now safe to say that the 2016 Camaro will not:
- weigh significantly less than the 2015 Mustang.
- provide a stunning new look to upstage the all new 2015 Mustang.
- have a new chassis that blows away the new 2015 Mustang chassis on the track.
- be more marketable to the rest of the world than the 2015 Mustang.

weigh significantly less than the 2015 Mustang.

I don't think there will be many vehicles that do accomplish this feat unless they shrink an entire class. The ATS seems more compact than mid-size even though it has a large mid-size wheelbase. The 5th Gen's 112.5 inch wheelbase was ridiculous... trying to make a performance car out of it was just as asinine. Some weight and some of that monstrous wheelbase should be remedied by switching to the Alpha. Something has my attention though. I mentioned that the ATS looked more compact, it does in pictures as well. I still think the Camaro is a larger car than the ATS overall, that includes the wheelbase. I'm not sure if this would cost a great deal but, it would be cool to see a 3rd variation of the Alpha platform specifically designed to be a 2 door, 4 seat, RWD coupe. I can't express the need enough, for a shorter wheelbase on the 6th Gen Camaro. The ATS can pull off a 2 door coupe, the rear seats are challenging but so is the Mustang's...

Now, that can be a little misleading... Any weight lost by reducing the wheelbase will likely be brought right back on. The Alpha (or ATS/CTS) was not developed with a V8 or a Supercharged/Turbocharged V8 in mind. The amount of weight such reinforcements bring on can obviously vary. An example would be the 2007 Mustang GT gaining 125lbs over the previous '06 GT. Of course, there are endless circumstances that would alter that number but, its a definite gain. Another predicament would be that the Alpha was not designed to support Convertible body styles. Previously, I assumed that any reinforcements supporting a heavier, more powerful drivetrain would be similar, if not identical to convertible supports. That is not the case... In fact, most of the reinforcement being done now is an additional layer of sheet metal between the two (or more in some cases) existing exterior layers. Sub-frame connectors are not the kind of convertible support we are looking for. Sled runners, rockers, firewall, engine cradle and your miter cuts need beef. An area the Camaro has that the Mustang doesn't AND, it will need lots of extra support, is the torque boxes... In short... The ATS and CTS are missing a lot of metal the Camaro demands for it's added performance of super output models and convertibles.

(cont...)

 

[thePill]

Hey Pill, if the GT350 is not destined for GS, are they looking at GTD or GTLM, as well as maybe the WC?

I have no idea... I'm getting the feeling it will be a push more towards a GT car as you suggest. I think World Challenge is already a GO.

As it stands right now, the previous Boss 302 was about as lethal as they come. In my opinion, Ford Racing went just a little too far, eventually being restricted to become class competitive. I personally feel the GT350 has no place in CTSCC GS along side the Z/28.R. At this point, the GT350.R would be less productive on track than the street version of the GT350.

If this is the case, it tells me that Ford considers the GT a z28 competitor and we will see a Mustang GT.R in CTSCC. I think it would be awesome if they finally did release a Spec GT for the SCCA like SAI did with the 2011 Shelby GT350. I would LOVE a Mustang GT.R from Ford Racing, being a T2 Spec GT. I think T1 would be more GT350...

 

[w3rkn]

I have no idea... I'm getting the feeling it will be a push more towards a GT car as you suggest. I think World Challenge is already a GO.

As it stands right now, the previous Boss 302 was about as lethal as they come. In my opinion, Ford Racing went just a little too far, eventually being restricted to become class competitive. I personally feel the GT350 has no place in CTSCC GS along side the Z/28.R. At this point, the GT350.R would be less productive on track than the street version of the GT350.

If this is the case, it tells me that Ford considers the GT a z28 competitor and we will see a Mustang GT.R in CTSCC. I think it would be awesome if they finally did release a Spec GT for the SCCA like SAI did with the 2011 Shelby GT350. I would LOVE a Mustang GT.R from Ford Racing, being a T2 Spec GT. I think T1 would be more GT350...

So you do think it bodes well for R & S versions..?

 

[thePill]

So you do think it bodes well for R & S versions..?

Lets look at the reason an "S" was needed to begin with. Initially, the Boss was engineered in the Continental Tire series for the Grand Sport class in Grand Am. In 2011, Ford Racing released the Boss 302R ahead of the Boss 302 and Boss 302 Laguna Seca. It wasn't too long after that, they announced a Boss 302S which stood for "Spec". The issue with the Boss 302R is that it was designed specifically for a single class and it has class specific (ie sponsors parts) on the car. What happened was, Pirelli's World Challenge had no use for a Boss 302R in Continental Tires and Koni suspension. They needed a Boss built to "Spec". The SCCA's T1 and a few other classes also needed a Boss 302 in a different "Spec". Ford Racing offers several different versions of the "Spec" Boss 302. There were also enough changes made to the Boss 302R in 2012 to warrant another name change... It was called the Boss 302R1...

There will be a lot of shoes to fill and only a few will be filled in with a new GT. There could always be a GT350R, GT350S or GT350C... The FR500 had numerous letters after it. It all depends on what classes it will contend in and how many classes the new GT can handle.

There are a few active PWC and I believe some IMSA drivers that are members here. Most frequent this thread, they may have more insight to the politics involved with brands and nameplates.

 

[thePill]

Congratulations to the Fall-Line BMW M3 for winning the CTSCC GS Class Championship. It's amazing to see a young man like Trent Hinderman win a championship so young. To next year boys, for it wont be that easy...

Next, our very own Multimatic's Boss 302 finishing 3rd overall. Scott and Jade drove very well this year. It wasn't the championship I was hoping for but, a strong finale for the S197... and a damn fine looking competitor...

Seen here in Blue...

Well, well, well... If it isn't the Camaro z/28, coming in 2nd... Although your massive 7 liter and mostly unrestricted engine provided you a HUGE advantage, you still couldn't manage a Championship. IMSA handed you a Championship and your still couldn't reel it in. For a car that skipped homologation just so it could use special aftermarket Pratt/Miller equipment, I'm not impressed... What a shameful way to lose a championship, by letting it slip right through your piggy little fingers. Hopefully, the Camaro will see it's way out of the class.... once and for all...

I would be red in the face, embarrassed...

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