GT 500 convertible will it be made for 2020?

[Darkane]

So you don't have any numbers, measurements or data and you think I'm just going to blindly accept it? You don't have a non-biased source with comparisons? The actual performance of the two cars is very closely matched, so that is not evidence that one car has a superior chassis.

Let's say in a theoretical sense that one chassis is "better" than the other or one is "superior". Is it 1% better? 10%? Better as in stiffer? Lighter weight? More/less expensive to build? By what percentage or how many pounds lighter? How much stiffer?

Just saying something is "superior" is fairly meaningless. I think you know that. You seem like an intelligent enough guy.

Jim was intimating that the GT500 won't be made into a convertible because the Mustang chassis isn't good enough to "handle" the power. Completely false. You may want to let that go and you don't care. I don't want a GT500 convertible, but I believe that if Ford made one, the Mustang chassis would handle the power every bit as well as the ZL1 convertible handles 650 hp.

I can tell you the alpha platform was 28% stiffer than the Zeta. Furthering the chassis, the camaro team reduces the body in white 133lbs over the gen 5.

Final point, the alpha chassis has almost 4” greater wheel base than the S550, along with reduced overhangs. This reduces the pendulum effect (think 911) and increases high speed stability and balance.

Shorted wheelbases can create a feeing of playfulness and more “fun”
Which is what the mustang excels at. In numbers and performance, the alpha has it.

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[nastang87xx]

Get, Out.

 

[nastang87xx]

The Alpha is superior to the S550. Lighter, stiffer, more high strength aluminum. And despite how similar the two are, the SS 1LE is actually about 45lbs lighter than the GT350 Track Pack car.

 

[Hack]

I can tell you the alpha platform was 28% stiffer than the Zeta. Furthering the chassis, the camaro team reduces the body in white 133lbs over the gen 5.

Do you have a source or link that shows how the test is performed and more information about it? I assume the test would be supporting the chassis on suspension pick up points, applying a load and measuring the deflection. I'd like to see where the load was applied and how much the chassis deformed.

The reason I want the information is that if they apply 1,000 lbs to one of the Alpha chassis points and it moves by 1 mm whereas the Zeta moved 1.25 mm, I'm going to say, "who cares?" Both distances are so small that the improvement will not produce a significant performance increase in the final product.

133 lbs is decent for a weight reduction. But I wouldn't necessarily say that the Alpha chassis is better than the Zeta chassis just based on 133 lbs weight savings and 25% stiffer. Remember that the Alpha version of the Camaro is also smaller. The smaller the car is, the lighter and stiffer it will be, even without any amazing engineering innovations or outstanding chassis design.

Now if the Camaro had increased in size to the dimensions of the Challenger - with a real back seat and smaller C pillars for better visibility - and still dropped 133 lbs and gotten stiffer, THEN I would agree whole heartedly that the Alpha chassis is an amazing design - or at least that it's better than the Zeta.

The Alpha is superior to the S550. Lighter, stiffer, more high strength aluminum. And despite how similar the two are, the SS 1LE is actually about 45lbs lighter than the GT350 Track Pack car.

SOURCE for Alpha chassis being superior?

 

[nastang87xx]

SOURCE for Alpha chassis being superior?

I don't have direct links but from my understanding is that the two unibodies are actually about the same rigidity. However the Alpha chassis uses an aluminum dash support vs the S550's steel setup and accomplishes the same rigidness while also being lighter. A longer wheelbase allows for better handling precision. The Alpha chassis center of gravity is also a touch lower too. The Alpha chassis' FULL front suspension member including the K and brace are all aluminum as well which in theory also gives it better rigidity. The S550's is steel and nearly a carryover from the S197. I believe the Alpha's front knuckles are also aluminum too all the way down to the base cars. The Mustang doesn't get aluminum until the PP2. If one does all the math, if the Mustang had the same aluminum usage, the two cars would actually weigh within lbs of each other, trim for trim. Camaros CAN get very heavy, although it doesn't add up as quickly as in the Mustang where 3800+ on a well optioned GT is no sweat. A heavily optioned 2SS can scratch 3760lbs or so.

 

[martinjlm]

So you don't have any numbers, measurements or data and you think I'm just going to blindly accept it? You don't have a non-biased source with comparisons? The actual performance of the two cars is very closely matched, so that is not evidence that one car has a superior chassis.

Let's say in a theoretical sense that one chassis is "better" than the other or one is "superior". Is it 1% better? 10%? Better as in stiffer? Lighter weight? More/less expensive to build? By what percentage or how many pounds lighter? How much stiffer?

Just saying something is "superior" is fairly meaningless. I think you know that. You seem like an intelligent enough guy.

Jim was intimating that the GT500 won't be made into a convertible because the Mustang chassis isn't good enough to "handle" the power. Completely false. You may want to let that go and you don't care. I don't want a GT500 convertible, but I believe that if Ford made one, the Mustang chassis would handle the power every bit as well as the ZL1 convertible handles 650 hp.

Read my post a little more carefully and you'll find that I said the chassis already handles close to 500. I also said that it is POSSIBLE that Ford could do a convertible but would likely not due to the added mass to brace it.

ZL1 has added mass to brace the Alpha chassis to handle 650 hp. Handling 700+ will logically require even more mass.

 

[Epiphany]

This always goes the same way with Hack. Negates anything you try to offer him and then makes a blind declaration. If he cared, he'd look for himself. He chooses self deception instead. Good luck Hack.

 

[Darkane]

Do you have a source or link that shows how the test is performed and more information about it? I assume the test would be supporting the chassis on suspension pick up points, applying a load and measuring the deflection. I'd like to see where the load was applied and how much the chassis deformed.

The reason I want the information is that if they apply 1,000 lbs to one of the Alpha chassis points and it moves by 1 mm whereas the Zeta moved 1.25 mm, I'm going to say, "who cares?" Both distances are so small that the improvement will not produce a significant performance increase in the final product.

133 lbs is decent for a weight reduction. But I wouldn't necessarily say that the Alpha chassis is better than the Zeta chassis just based on 133 lbs weight savings and 25% stiffer. Remember that the Alpha version of the Camaro is also smaller. The smaller the car is, the lighter and stiffer it will be, even without any amazing engineering innovations or outstanding chassis design.

Now if the Camaro had increased in size to the dimensions of the Challenger - with a real back seat and smaller C pillars for better visibility - and still dropped 133 lbs and gotten stiffer, THEN I would agree whole heartedly that the Alpha chassis is an amazing design - or at least that it's better than the Zeta.


SOURCE for Alpha chassis being superior?

The information you desire is proprietary and unavailable to the public. The two chassis would have to be placed, simultaneously, on two rotisserie’s and tested. Not happening.

As for links, man you gotta do some of your leg work. You’re purely trolling now. It’s out there and EASY to find.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15105515/retro-redux-2016-chevrolet-camaro-dissected-feature/

 

[Dominator961]

This is the same lame talk as GM saying they have the better light duty trucks. Lie.

Saying the GM chassis is better is a wide line.
Prove it.

The Alpha is superior to the S550. Lighter, stiffer, more high strength aluminum. And despite how similar the two are, the SS 1LE is actually about 45lbs lighter than the GT350 Track Pack car.

show me measured chassis flex between the two chassis.
To make aluminum as strong as steel it needs to be either twice as thick or additional reinforcement /webbing.

 

[Dominator961]

I don't have direct links but from my understanding is that the two unibodies are actually about the same rigidity. However the Alpha chassis uses an aluminum dash support vs the S550's steel setup and accomplishes the same rigidness while also being lighter. A longer wheelbase allows for better handling precision. The Alpha chassis center of gravity is also a touch lower too. The Alpha chassis' FULL front suspension member including the K and brace are all aluminum as well which in theory also gives it better rigidity. The S550's is steel and nearly a carryover from the S197. I believe the Alpha's front knuckles are also aluminum too all the way down to the base cars. The Mustang doesn't get aluminum until the PP2. If one does all the math, if the Mustang had the same aluminum usage, the two cars would actually weigh within lbs of each other, trim for trim. Camaros CAN get very heavy, although it doesn't add up as quickly as in the Mustang where 3800+ on a well optioned GT is no sweat. A heavily optioned 2SS can scratch 3760lbs or so.

The camaro also uses steel suspension links and arms.

Who has the body in white weights between each chassis? Anyone?

 

[nastang87xx]

show me measured chassis flex between the two chassis.
To make aluminum as strong as steel it needs to be either twice as thick or additional reinforcement /webbing.

I would love to see that myself too.

 

[Hack]

This always goes the same way with Hack. Negates anything you try to offer him and then makes a blind declaration. If he cared, he'd look for himself. He chooses self deception instead. Good luck Hack.

Don't have the facts, you must attack.

The information you desire is proprietary and unavailable to the public. The two chassis would have to be placed, simultaneously, on two rotisserie’s and tested. Not happening.

As for links, man you gotta do some of your leg work. You’re purely trolling now. It’s out there and EASY to find.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15105515/retro-redux-2016-chevrolet-camaro-dissected-feature/

That article is all fluff. There's very little useful technical information. It does say that the Camaro chassis got 2.3 inches shorter and 0.8 inches narrower. And that there's an aluminum support beam in the dash area.

Seriously - I am not intentionally trolling by saying the Mustang chassis is as good as the Camaro chassis. The kind of information I would need is the Camaro clearly outclassing the Mustang in performance (data shows they are similar with similar weight and power); or test data (I understand that would be expensive and difficult for a third party to gather).

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for evidence when other people are making what some might call a blind declaration. Why should I have to research and prove someone else's statement?

I would love to see that myself too.

Frankly I think that if we had testing it would show that the differences between the chassis aren't that significant. Sure, one is going to be better than the other, but the importance of a "good chassis" is to make the vehicle drive, handle and perform well. We all have seen many different tests of the Mustang vs. Camaro and we know that the performance differences between them are not large. I have test driven several Camaros. The biggest differences I noticed were styling, the engine and the shifter. Chassis differences were not noticeable to me - at least not driving it on the street.

Frankly, I think that if the Camaro chassis is slightly stiffer, it has a lot to do with having a small trunk opening, smaller windshield and window openings, large roof pillars, etc. Many things that people often object to when they drive the car.

I do know what a super stiff chassis feels like from driving around in my 944 (and test drives of other Porsches). Some cars feel like they are carved from a solid piece of metal. Neither the Mustang nor the Camaro gives me that feeling.

 

[martinjlm]

This is the same lame talk as GM saying they have the better light duty trucks. Lie.

Saying the GM chassis is better is a wide line.
Prove it.

show me measured chassis flex between the two chassis.
To make aluminum as strong as steel it needs to be either twice as thick or additional reinforcement /webbing.

The camaro also uses steel suspension links and arms.

Who has the body in white weights between each chassis? Anyone?

I would love to see that myself too.

To get the type of information you guys are talking about would require having access to studies done by either A2Mac1, Ricardo, AVL, or USCAR. That information is very hard to come by and very expensive, but it exists. I used to have access to it, but obviously don't anymore. If you know someone who works in body structural engineering or product validation or product benchmarking at any of the Domestic 3 automakers they may be able to give you a peek at some of the data.

 

[Epiphany]

Don't have the facts, you must attack.

You're on your own buddy. Good luck in your world.

 

[Laststandard]

The camaro also uses steel suspension links and arms.

I'd bet the steel rear links on the 'Maro are lighter than that monstrosity of a rear suspension on the Mustang.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for evidence when other people are making what some might call a blind declaration. Why should I have to research and prove someone else's statement?

Dude.. you're making a declaration that you believe the S550 is better and are presenting it as fact. How about you offer up some items to backup your claim?

Hell, at least you can actually adjust front camber on the Camaro from the factory.

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