Going in too fast?

[Shadow277]

First, I've learned a lot from you all so thanks for helping me out thus far. Just have another question as I start prepping for my next event (my work is paying for an HPDE day for someone and I'm coordinating this).

I noticed as I am pushing harder, I hear my cheap Fire Hawk tires squeel and this is bringing me more out of my comfort zone, especially when a wall is on the other side... Was I going in too fast with a PP1 set up? Keep in mind my 2016 GT is a base model stock car with PP1 wheels.

The only thing I add is that I never trail brake. No braking or throttle mid corner as my begginers class instructed. Randy Pobst instructs to trail brake until hitting the apex and Driver61 on Youtube goes way indepth as to why we should stay on the brake until it is time to get on the throttle.

Who can coach me through this? The guy getting the HPDE day has a GT350 and I want to see if my skills can let me keep up.

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[TundraOnKings]

Do you have video? I’m a newb as well. Doing an intermediate SCCA TrackNight event this Friday. I GoPro with a headrest mount and record using a track app with my phone. Really helps to review video.

My DD Lexus on Nitto NT555 G2’s squealed quite a bit on track, which I actually liked. I had a better idea on when I was starting to lose traction.

My 2020 GT PP1 on the factory Michelin PS4’s don’t squeal at all. And I broke the ass end loose a few times the last time on track with no sound.

 

[PaddyPrix]

Well you called it right there... cheap Firehawk tires. They're fine for driving around town, and when I double dutied my 19GT, they were my cheap tire to go on cruises and whatnot, but definitely not around the track, where their 340 treadwear doesn't do any favors at all... or, do they? That loud audible warning you heard was those tires begging for dear life, a sign they're at or exceeding their maximum grip, as woeful as that might be.

If you're in a beginner's class, don't worry about the trailbrake, instead, perhaps try to work on your lines, and check your data acquisition to what does best in each type of turn. Try playing with early and late apex, accelerate through the apex, and trying to brake deeper into the turn, and return to the gas that much quicker, and smoother. The guy in the GT350 unfortunately has about 100hp on you, and assuming you're both equal drivers, that's a pretty big void, stock to stock.

I'm not saying trailbraking is a bad thing, but if you're still working your way though reading lines, car balance, countersteering, and string theory, perhaps trailbraking can wait a few more events. I dunno, I'm still a beginner too.

 

[Ewheels]

I'm not saying trailbraking is a bad thing, but if you're still working your way though reading lines, car balance, countersteering, and string theory, perhaps trailbraking can wait a few more events.

That string theory is very important for car control

 

[Norm Peterson]

The only thing I add is that I never trail brake. No braking or throttle mid corner as my begginers class instructed.

Almost certainly because it cannot be assumed that novice track day entrants possess much in the way of fine brake modulation skill. Especially these days where ABS is a near-universal fitment, when it comes to hard braking most people teach themselves to just plant their right foot on the brake pedal and hope.

Randy Pobst instructs to trail brake until hitting the apex and Driver61 on Youtube goes way indepth as to why we should stay on the brake until it is time to get on the throttle.

Staying on the brake does not mean staying on it with constant pressure. It's that modulation skill thing again (and sort of gets into the "string theory" bit as well), which I doubt comes natural to most drivers coming from street driving only.

Who can coach me through this? The guy getting the HPDE day has a GT350 and I want to see if my skills can let me keep up.

Don't worry about other drivers or how closely you can measure up to their lap times. I've found that going out there underestimating myself (and being pleasantly surprised at the end of each session) is a good approach to take. Removing perceived pressures on yourself to meet vague performance bogeys makes it easier on you to relax, pay attention, and learn while you're out there.

At this point, don't worry about how far into your cornering that you can carry any braking. Worry more about carrying too much braking, too far into the corner. Give yourself enough time to get smoothly off the brakes and smoothly into the throttle. Smoothly cannot be over-emphasized here.


Norm

 

[Grintch]

You're not going to keep up with a GT350 in a regular, small brake GT unless the GT350 driver really doesn't know what he is doing. I am surprised you haven't run out of brakes yet. The "best" way to crash in a HPDE is by trying to keep up with/or in front of a faster car/driver.

If you enter the corner too fast with a stock-ish setup, you are going to push. Which will make the tires squeal, pretty much no matter what tires they are (though some tire just naturally squeal more than others). Trail braking can help a bit with this. But you still have to slow enough for the corner. Slow in - fast out. Over cooking the entry just makes you slow though most of the corner and the exit. And a good exit is the key to good lap times.

Maybe run a autocross or two to get more practice at finding and driving at the limit? Though autocross usually isn't all that helpful at developing your braking skills.

 

[Norm Peterson]

My 2020 GT PP1 on the factory Michelin PS4’s don’t squeal at all. And I broke the ass end loose a few times the last time on track with no sound.

I'm sure they'll squeal once you're running up close to their lateral grip limit for any sustained amount of time.


Norm

 

[PaddyPrix]

That string theory is very important for car control

You'd be amazed at how many people need it explained, especially ones with heavy, powerful cars.

 

[Ewheels]

You'd be amazed at how many people need it explained, especially ones with heavy, powerful cars.

.......I just now realized what you originally meant. The "string connecting gas pedal and steering wheel" theory......I thought you were talking about quantum physics string theory.....ignore me completely; it's Monday

 

[Shadow277]

Do you have video? I’m a newb as well. Doing an intermediate SCCA TrackNight event this Friday. I GoPro with a headrest mount and record using a track app with my phone. Really helps to review video.

My DD Lexus on Nitto NT555 G2’s squealed quite a bit on track, which I actually liked. I had a better idea on when I was starting to lose traction.

My 2020 GT PP1 on the factory Michelin PS4’s don’t squeal at all. And I broke the ass end loose a few times the last time on track with no sound.

I can feel myself slide a bit off the track but it put me right on the racing line once I gained traction. Is sliding slower? I suppose since I cannot really control the slide well enough then it is dangerous.

 

[Shadow277]

Well you called it right there... cheap Firehawk tires. They're fine for driving around town, and when I double dutied my 19GT, they were my cheap tire to go on cruises and whatnot, but definitely not around the track, where their 340 treadwear doesn't do any favors at all... or, do they? That loud audible warning you heard was those tires begging for dear life, a sign they're at or exceeding their maximum grip, as woeful as that might be.

If you're in a beginner's class, don't worry about the trailbrake, instead, perhaps try to work on your lines, and check your data acquisition to what does best in each type of turn. Try playing with early and late apex, accelerate through the apex, and trying to brake deeper into the turn, and return to the gas that much quicker, and smoother. The guy in the GT350 unfortunately has about 100hp on you, and assuming you're both equal drivers, that's a pretty big void, stock to stock.

I'm not saying trailbraking is a bad thing, but if you're still working your way though reading lines, car balance, countersteering, and string theory, perhaps trailbraking can wait a few more events. I dunno, I'm still a beginner too.

I can say that I'm mostly on the line. Had ride alongs with the club instructors and they said I was doing well. I scared them a bit with my late braking lol.

 

[Shadow277]

You'd be amazed at how many people need it explained, especially ones with heavy, powerful cars.

I had a 2012 Civic Si before on Fire Hawks. Never understood it until I got my Mustang!

 

[NightmareMoon]

Don’t try to keep up, its a recipe for disaster. Intructors spin trying to catch or keep up with their buddies too. Drive within your limits and leave the ego at home, theres no place for it on track. Either you’ll be faster or you won’t . Pushing it will just get you a ticket to the clown show.

most street tires will squeal when near/at the limit. Its normal tire communication. Listen for it and try to use the info its giving you.

your instructor was trying to save you by asking you not to trailbrake or brake or goose it during a corner. Once you can keep the car safely on the line and get some experience making small mistakes (and recovering fromt them) you can then start to flirt with trailbraking and throttle application. Any touch of the brake or gas while cornering is going to transfer weight/grip in a way a novice may not be ready for and you’ll need a sensitive touch and a subconcious mastery of of string theory’ to keep the car under control. Again drive within your limits and always listen to in person instruction over some blanket advice on the internet (this advice included)

 

[Egparson202]

Don't worry about other drivers or how closely you can measure up to their lap times. I've found that going out there underestimating myself (and being pleasantly surprised at the end of each session) is a good approach to take. Removing perceived pressures on yourself to meet vague performance bogeys makes it easier on you to relax, pay attention, and learn while you're out there.

At this point, don't worry about how far into your cornering that you can carry any braking. Worry more about carrying too much braking, too far into the corner. Give yourself enough time to get smoothly off the brakes and smoothly into the throttle. Smoothly cannot be over-emphasized here.


Norm

THIS!

And don’t try to be the King of Braking Late. Think about looking ahead and managing the weight transfer smoothly. When you’re doing it right, the tires will sing but not scream.

 

[Shadow277]

THIS!

And don’t try to be the King of Braking Late. Think about looking ahead and managing the weight transfer smoothly. When you’re doing it right, the tires will sing but not scream.

Norm has excellent advice.

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