GM is pulling back on EVs

[Strokerswild]

Probably better off in an EV as no exhaust fumes to worry about when keeping warm

Exhaust is a concern, but as anyone who's lived here long enough know that if you get stranded you be sure to clear around the exhaust outlet. And keep a full tank when on any length of trip.

As such, I'd be interested in seeing a comparison between a fully charged BEV and an ICE rig with a full tank in -20 conditions with the heat on.

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[key01]

Exhaust is a concern, but as anyone who's lived here long enough know that if you get stranded you be sure to clear around the exhaust outlet. And a full tank.

As such, I'd be interested in seeing a comparison between a fully charged BEV and an ICE rig with a full tank in -20 conditions.

I would also think that the EV would provide instant heat vs waiting for the ICE engine to reach operating temp? Maybe then it’s “on” for a shorter period. Good question though

 

[K4fxd]

I would also think that the EV would provide instant heat vs waiting for the ICE engine to reach operating temp? Maybe then it’s “on” for a shorter period. Good question though

Gas keeps it's energy density at low temps, batteries don't. This might offset any advantage of instant heat.

 

[sk47]

Nope. Wrong. I just spoke to the Battery Council International at their national convention on this exact topic. Every EV still has a low voltage battery on board that powers all the stuff you mentioned, with the exception that some aspects of the HVAC draw from both the low voltage and the high voltage battery. An EV has zero range degradation from use of lights, wipers, stereo.

This comes across as paranoia. “They’re comin’ to get our guns energy”.

Hello; OK, you are slick with the words. I will skip much of the post and get to the part which is loaded with the most BS. That being apparently equating the 12-volt battery an EV caries to one in an ICE. Let us get real. My guess is there is a 12-volt battery simply because so many systems in use the last few decades run on 12 volts. Fans, power window motors and the like. I figure some of the power from the lithium high voltage main battery pack could be stepped down to 12 volts but do not know why such is not done. Maybe added cost or complexity. Not the main sticking point, however.
The BS starts in an ICE that 12-volt battery mainly starts the engine. After it is running the alternator powers a cars systems in addition to topping off the charge of the battery. The battery might help some at high loads at idle, but my bet is not often or much.
In a BEV there is no alternator so the low voltage battery cannot be recharged as you drive. No alternator to run the various electrical systems. I am not up on how the low voltage battery in an EV is charged or what type it may be. My guess is it likely is a deep cycle type much like what I use in my fishing boat. It must be charged the same as the Li battery pack is charged by being plugged into the grid every so often.

So, I admit I do not know if the low voltage (12 volt) battery is a separate and isolated system of its own. If so, I can see how the fans, radio, wipers, power windows and such will not affect driving range. Thing is that 12 volt battery must run down with use same as the main Li battery pack which powers the car. Use enough of the power systems and eventually no wipers, no fans, no power windows. I forgot to mention lights.
Point being no matter how cleverly it is worded there is only so much electric energy in a BEV when you start to drive. Even the main Li battery pack is an assembly of smaller cells. Might even be that main batter pack is divided up into sections that run different road motors. Using electric energy will run downs the batteries.

That last bit is very telling. The public has been sold a bill of false goods before. We were not paranoid when we questioned the actions use against us during covid. The mandates already in place and the policies already are affecting us. It is not unjustified paranoia. Some of the more powerful have made public statements they will do away with fossil fuels.

 

[sk47]

I would also think that the EV would provide instant heat vs waiting for the ICE engine to reach operating temp? Maybe then it’s “on” for a shorter period. Good question though

Hello; Two types of heat in an EV. One is a simple resistance type much like the burner of an electric stove. Push electric energy thru a wire with resistance then the wire gets hot. Can get red hot. This would be quick heat and also uses a lot of energy in a hurry. In my reading i found resistance heat was used in earlier and cheaper EV's.

The other is basically a heat pump type. Also much like an Air Conditioner. It uses less energy from the battery because it does not create heat energy. Like the heat pump in a house it moves heat from outside air and concentrates it. Also like a home heat pump it loses efficiency as outside temps get lower. Used in newer and more expensive EV is what I found.

I think the heat and AC have to be run off the main battery pack and not off the 12 volt battery. Maybe the fans that blow air run off the 12 volt battery.

 

[sk47]

I heard Ca is or will charge for electric according to your income.

Hello; Be ready to be called paranoid you know. This is in line with the new ideas. Somehow we are not supposed to have noticed the things already in play.

 

[K4fxd]

Also like a home heat pump it loses efficiency as outside temps get lower.

Yea, at -20 a heat pump will do nothing but blow cool air.

Looks like the 12 volt battery is charged by the large battery pack.

From google.
Since there isn’t a mechanically rotating pulley system under the hood like a traditional ICE vehicle, an alternator doesn’t work to recharge the 12-volt battery. Rather, electric cars use a converter that draws current from the large battery
pack, topping it up.

Good BS detector @sk47

 

[sk47]

Yea, at -20 a heat pump will do nothing but blow cool air.

Looks like the 12 volt battery is charged by the large battery pack.

From google.
Since there isn’t a mechanically rotating pulley system under the hood like a traditional ICE vehicle, an alternator doesn’t work to recharge the 12-volt battery. Rather, electric cars use a converter that draws current from the large battery
pack, topping it up.

Good BS detector @sk47

Hello; Thanks for the information. Did not make sense that the 12-volt battery is an isolated system.

 

[sk47]

Yea, at -20 a heat pump will do nothing but blow cool air.

Looks like the 12 volt battery is charged by the large battery pack.

From google.
Since there isn’t a mechanically rotating pulley system under the hood like a traditional ICE vehicle, an alternator doesn’t work to recharge the 12-volt battery. Rather, electric cars use a converter that draws current from the large battery
pack, topping it up.

Good BS detector @sk47

Hello; The heat pump at my house starts being less efficient around freezing. Starts to run a lot. At some point the auxillary heat kicks in. That is several coils of resistance wire start to glow red hot. I can tell when they start because of the smell. Also actually can feel actual warm air.
I would like to have geothermal heat pump but the cost is very high. Mainly the drilling I think.

 

[martinjlm]

Yea, at -20 a heat pump will do nothing but blow cool air.

Looks like the 12 volt battery is charged by the large battery pack.

From google.
Since there isn’t a mechanically rotating pulley system under the hood like a traditional ICE vehicle, an alternator doesn’t work to recharge the 12-volt battery. Rather, electric cars use a converter that draws current from the large battery
pack, topping it up.

Good BS detector @sk47

Close enough. It’s actually called an inverter. Could very well be related to a converter or maybe they are just different names for the same hardware. The inverter is also what converts AC to DC and manages the energy regeneration during braking operations. Seeing as how I used the word “convert” in the description of what an inverter does, I am further convinced that the names may be interchangeable.

 

[K4fxd]

Close enough. It’s actually called an inverter.

An inverter converts DC to AC. Most EV's are using AC motors.

A buck converter will step down DC voltage but going from 400v or higher to 12 is a large step. Not sure how the auto makers are doing it.

One way I see it happening is to use the 400v AC, run it through a transformer to get 15v, then run it through a rectifier.

 

[Burkey]

An inverter converts DC to AC. Most EV's are using AC motors.

A buck converter will step down DC voltage but going from 400v or higher to 12 is a large step. Not sure how the auto makers are doing it.

One way I see it happening is to use the 400v AC, run it through a transformer to get 15v, then run it through a rectifier.

That would be my best guess also

 

[Gregs24]

Close enough. It’s actually called an inverter. Could very well be related to a converter or maybe they are just different names for the same hardware. The inverter is also what converts AC to DC and manages the energy regeneration during braking operations. Seeing as how I used the word “convert” in the description of what an inverter does, I am further convinced that the names may be interchangeable.

Depends which way you are doing it

Difference between Converter and Inverter (tutorialspoint.com)

 

[sk47]

Hello; Decades ago I managed a drive-in movie theater. To power the carbon arc light in the projectors the AC current had to be converted to DC. It was done by a large AC motor driving a large generator. Both units were at least 12 inches in diameter and likely larger. My guess from memory is around 18 inches.
Not big motors by mine country standards.

 

[sk47]

Exhaust is a concern, but as anyone who's lived here long enough know that if you get stranded you be sure to clear around the exhaust outlet. And keep a full tank when on any length of trip.

As such, I'd be interested in seeing a comparison between a fully charged BEV and an ICE rig with a full tank in -20 conditions with the heat on.

Hello; During winter months I try to keep the tank close to full. For sure above half a tank. Usually I fill up at 3/4 of a tank. Been stuck in traffic a few times.
In the old days when tanks were made from metal and not sealed you got lots of condensation inside during cold weather. Keping the tank full was supposed to help prevent some condensation. I also used to pour some bottles of alcohol in my tanks during winter. Water will mix with alcohol instead of forming a layer at the bottom of the tank.
Sometimes during very cold spells I would be called to try to get cars/trucks started. If the water was in the fuel lines often could not get them started. You had to take care of the water before a hard freeze.

A friend had several now classic cars back in the day. I could not convince him to do some basic things when he stored the cars in an unheated garage. Wound up having to pull the fuel tank in an old Porsche which had lots of rust. He would not buy a new tank so we cleaned out the rust as best we could. I put a length of chain in the tank and we sloshed it around in a cleaning chemical. Built a rig with ropes to hold the tank in the air while we shook and tilted it.
Then once cleaned out and dry used the same rig to line the inside with POR-15. Worked for a couple of decades. I still have the plate i made to block off a hole in the tank. It is still covered on one side with the POR-15. After reinstalling the tank I plumbed a see thru filter in the fuel line near the tank. Eventually started seeing some rust flakes after many years.
Now days there are good chemicals to deal with rust. I have used EVAPORUST on several things. Not on fuel tanks as they are a plastic anymore. I guess to deal with the ethanol in fuels.

Last thing. I have not read anything about it but figure if you run 10% ethanol fuel there will not be a water layer at the bottom of a tank anymore. Water is denser than gas so will form a layer at the bottom of a tank under the fuel. The ethanol ought to mix with the water and send it thru the combustion of the engine.

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