GM is pulling back on EVs

[sk47]

This comes across as paranoia. “They’re comin’ to get our guns energy”. For EVs with bi-directional charging, the pushing of energy back to the grid has to be initiated by the vehicle owner, and then only in those localities where that activity is allowed. Some local utility boards have regulations that would treat such activities as “acting as a power company” and would regulate them as such. Others don’t. And wireless vehicle charging is unidirectional, so you’d be safe there. The primary purposes of bidirectional charging are to be able to power tools and equipment on job-sites, campsites, beach outings, tailgate parties and also to be able to power your home, like a generator, in power out situations.

Why EV Bidirectional Charging Is Vital for a Sustainable Future (msn.com)
Hello; Interesting how sometimes timing of things works out. Learned some new terms in this story. Are we paranoid or are their already plans in place?
I will be back with some edit comments in a bit.

Why EV Bidirectional Charging Is Vital for a Sustainable Future (msn.com)

“It's important to understand what bidirectional charging is before delving into its many applications. Also known as two-way charging, this feature allows an EV's battery power flow to be a two-way street, making it able to draw power from the grid to power the vehicle, but also discharge energy from the battery to power an exterior load. EVs that have it usually feature a built-in inverter that converts the battery's DC (direct current) to useful AC (alternating current) that can then power exterior loads, or even feed power back to the grid.”

“According to the Department of Energy, bidirectional charging can also allow EVs to supply power wherever it's needed in a natural disaster scenario, or another kind of emergency. This is especially convenient for high-priority sectors like hospitals, where a stationary power solution just wouldn't work and where power needs to be reestablished quickly.”

Hello; (my comments) Two clues here. One is that the department of energy has been cited. That implies some sort of planning has been done. If not planning at least thinking about it. Another is the “priority” bit. It is not that I have anything against a hospital getting emergency power. It is more I have been hoodooed enough to understand there will be places other than hospitals getting that emergency power. I also understand I will not be on the list. Hate to keep using the events of Covid as examples but when something works and fits so well, why not. How many of the top dogs during Covid got to use advantages we common folk could not, or we even were punished for?

“Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technology is a direct application of bidirectional charging that allows EVs to discharge power from their batteries to an exterior source using a specialized bidirectional charger that controls the flow of power to and from the grid to the EV. It will be a key factor in helping the electrical grid cope with the imminent influx of EVs hitting the market as a way to support the grid during times of high demand.”

“The great part is that EVs connected to the grid via V2G also have the potential to harness renewable energy that would otherwise go to waste, serving as massive energy storage solutions that can be discharged when demand calls for it. This is one of the greatest advantages of V2G technology because without a means to store electricity, solar energy can only be used when the sun is shining. But if you have a fleet of EVs storing surplus solar energy, you can use this energy at any time, especially at times when you would need harmful power plants to keep up with energy demand.”

“Vehicle-to-building (V2B) is very similar to vehicle-to-grid technology, but instead of feeding power back to the grid, the EV battery feeds electricity back to a host building. This is achieved through a bidirectional charging station, which needs to be connected to the building's electrical system, just like with V2G technology.”

Hello; (my comments) Here are the two new terms to me. (V2G) and (V2B) Paranoid huh??? We will be forced into BEV’s in a few years, then the vehicles we pay for will be part of the storage and grid backup. Somewhere in the article is mentioned this will be voluntary. I wonder if it will be voluntary the same way Covid shots were??

“The electrical grid will need constant improvements if it's going to keep up with the huge toll electric vehicles will place on it in the coming years.”

Hello; (my comments) Seems I made such a statement and was told the grid is just fine. Do I need to go back to do a copy& paste?

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[Burkey]

Hello; (my comments) Seems I made such a statement and was told the grid is just fine. Do I need to go back to do a copy& paste?

I don’t recall anyone suggesting that the grid won‘t need upgrades. Copy and paste it is.

I do recall mentioning that most experts have decided that the capacity will need to increase by 20-50% (in the US) to cater to these vehicles. I don’t recall anyone objecting to those figures. (Other countries typically see lower estimates).

 

[sk47]

I don’t recall anyone suggesting that the grid won‘t need upgrades. Copy and paste it is.

I do recall mentioning that most experts have decided that the capacity will need to increase by 20-50% (in the US) to cater to these vehicles. I don’t recall anyone objecting to those figures. (Other countries typically see lower estimates).

QUOTE="martinjlm, post: 3774136, member: 33751"]
In total the grid is more than sufficient for the EVs that are coming to market over the next few years. Since components of the grid are locally managed, conditions do vary from locale to locale. The grid is also being continuously upgrade through funding available from the bipartisan infrastructure bill as well as normal maintenance spending. An increasing number of new EV models are coming to market with bi-directional charging which allows the vehicles to put energy back into the grid when needed. There is a report where a bus fleet charged their buses during off-peak hours at low rates then sold energy back to the grid during high usage periods and earned $10,000 per bus over the course of a year. That’s an outlier case for sure, but the point being, different use patterns have different draws on the grid at different time. Ignore the temptation of studying “what if all these 100kWh capacity EVs plug in at the same time?”. It’ll never happen and design a grid to support that would be foolhardy.
[/QUOTE]

Hello; The main point being the last few summers and the last few winters my area has had spells when the power companies ask us to reduce the use of electricity. Had a rolling blackout last December (2022).
Lots of places have had even worse spells of too much demand. Some places on a regular basis the last few years. This with overall BEV at less than 5% during much of that time.

After copying the quote above and reading it again I see the possible spin. It is the "In total" bit which may allow the comment to be hold a small grain of truth. Not every place across the nation will be in an energy crisis at the same time. So, if some areas have plenty of extra energy reserve while other places cannot meet demand, the "in total" capacity of the grid is just fine. As I have said he is slick and a wordsmith.
Having to read between the lines is so tiresome. But such is what we will have to do from now on.
The it'll never happen bit above is also an example of this. Maybe not "all "100% of BEV's will ever be plugged in at the same time, some will be on the road using up charge. However, a very large number will be plugged in at the same time. Most will be plugged in every day at the least.

I also do not foresee off peak hours anymore. Sure, businesses will be closed overnight but that is when the BEV's will be drawing power for the next day. The agenda is in too much of a hurry of late. Two reasons i can think of. One was the fracking and oil shale tech which allowed for a few more decades of plenty of oil. That freaked out the true believers. The other is they have some seats of power on their side around the world and a hurry up makes sense before that power is lost or when the general public begins to understand the implications implied. Implication being a serious lifestyle change that in a shorthand comment will be a "do without" lifestyle. It will not stop at meat and dairy.

 

[jtmat]

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[sk47]

Tesla Model 3 Totaled, New Owner Has Surprises To Share (msn.com)

“While Tesla continues to lower its prices, a new Model 3 is still at least $40,000, and that gets you the single-motor rear-wheel-drive "base" model with 272 miles of EPA-estimated range.”

Hello; Fun story. The above quote caught my attention. Just for comparison a dealership in Johnson City TN has a nicely loaded Civic with a turbo engine for $32,500.

 

[sk47]

Those EPA range estimates for electric cars may be unreliable (msn.com)

“A new study suggests that the ranges and fuel economy equivalent figures published by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency are not particularly accurate.”

“If the EPA’s numbers are off, we should note, then the rest of the world has it even worse. EPA range figures are famously lower than those published by many other governments.”

“more than 350 internal-combustion vehicles averaged 4% better fuel economy than what was stated on their labels. But the average range for an EV was 12.5% worse than the price sticker numbers.”

“Extreme temperatures can drastically affect EV range – some EVs lose nearly a third of their range in the cold, others barely 3%.”

“Many manufacturers also suggest that owners never charge their batteries to 100% full to extend battery life. They may publish a range figure assuming a full battery, then use software to limit charging so that owners can’t easily fill the battery to full capacity.”

Hello; Much of the information has already been discussed. The last comment needs some more discussion. More read between the lines stuff. Hybrid battery packs have lasted better that I expected back in 2001. An explaination some years ago was that the software of a hybrid limits the charge and discharge levels of the auxilliary battery pack. Not sure of the exact numbers but think discharge is limited to around 30% of capacity nd the charge up stops at somewhere around 70% capacity. The notion is this help keep the battery pack in a range that promotes longer battery life.

I do not know if a plug in hybrid charges the battery pack closer to 100%. This will be a new thing to find out. My initial and possibly false assumption was the advantage of a plug in hybrid was to get that last 30% of energy from a wall socket. Now I wonder what the case may be.

Here is the way that last quote seems to play out. I look at an ad for a BEV and see it is supposed to get 300 miles of range. Then in actual use it is limited to say 275 miles of range in order to save the battery. (NOTE- I use made up numbers here as I do not know the real numbers. I may be way off to the bad or to the good.) Point being I want to know the practical range in use and not some puffed up advertisement range. Again I do not know which range I will be seeing in an ad. I am all for what ever keeps the expensive batteries from failing for lots of years.
An example is a BEV mower advertised for sale at a big box hardware store. The operating range is listed with six batteries in use. Read the ad and find the mower sells with only four batteries. So you do not actually have the ad add range unless you buy two more costly batteries. I think these battery packs plug in same as a cordless drill. At least the information is not hidden. It is clear enough in the ad.
Hello: One WAG from me on why some BEV’s might lose nearly 33% of range in cold. Might be the type using resistance heating to warm up the cabin????

 

[K4fxd]

One WAG from me on why some BEV’s might lose nearly 33% of range in cold. Might be the type using resistance heating to warm up the cabin????

In reality for many of our northern states this is the only form of heat that will work. Heat pumps don't work below 35 F or so.

 

[sk47]

In reality for many of our northern states this is the only form of heat that will work. Heat pumps don't work below 35 F or so.

Hello; Maybe they could have both types of heat??? Why not make the BEV's even more complicated and more expensive?
Many years ago, and before my time I learned that the early air-cooled vehicles had a heater problem. What i read is some had little stoves built in. Put some fuel in the stove and light it to get cabin heat. My 1972 914 with a VW air-cooled engine had sheet metal "boxes" wrapped around the exhaust headers. Had some tubing and a fan to move the hot air into the cabin. After a few years the stock setup began to rust. Only had good heat going up a grade. I eventually got some stainless steel heat exchangers/ headers and had good heat after.

I know the various EV champions do not see it this way, but so far to me the BEV's are inferior to most ICE as both currently exist. I can give them credit for good intentions if they truly believe the BEV's are part of a planet saver agenda.
Good intentions do not change the basic flaws/limitations surrounding the BEV's however. I also get the part of the philosophy which basically says we ought to be willing to sacrifice in order to save the planet. That we should put up with the many BEV flaws because saving the planet is enough reason on its own. That seems the only winning argument to pay a lot more for an inferior vehicle. Enough of this spin trying to make the BEV's out to be more than they are.

Of course, the climate/save the planet tactic has two main hurdles to overcome. One is that the BEV is not all that green when the whole ball of wax is considered. The other is using "climate change"/"global warming" as an excuse to push the agendas. We have a valuable lesson to learn from with the reaction to Covid.
We were very lucky that Covid the disease itself was not the horror some viral diseases can be. The lessons possible to learn from are about what happens when you mess with a working worldwide system with drastic changes. I get that some truly believe Co2 is a dire threat. I get that some truly believe climate/warming is largely natural. My point is neither belief makes ignoring the consequences of a too sudden change in fundamental life support systems worldwide a wise thing to do.
Not a good analogy, but perhaps vaguely close enough. A massive ship at speed can take miles to slow down or change direction. I get some think a decade or two is plenty of time. Not so in my estimation and i think i can back the estimation up.
.

 

[sk47]

Lordstown Motors Warns of Bankruptcy as Foxconn Deal Unravels (msn.com)
Hello; No idea what this may imply.

 

[sk47]

I don’t recall anyone suggesting that the grid won‘t need upgrades. Copy and paste it is.

I do recall mentioning that most experts have decided that the capacity will need to increase by 20-50% (in the US) to cater to these vehicles. I don’t recall anyone objecting to those figures. (Other countries typically see lower estimates).

Hello; I see you used the Ha-ha symbol (emoji?) even though I provided a clear answer to your skepticism.
For those who were not active in the Science is cancelled thread over time using that symbol became the equivalent of a putdown. Laughing at you rather than laughing at something funny.

In this case I agree with your take. For the "green & BEV plans " to work the grid will have to be improved to be able to both carry the increased electrical loads and also create the needed amounts of electric energy.

Two clear issues stand out with this. One is the cost of such a program of upgrade. The other is the current timelines. We are currently suffering high inflation due to massive deficit spending as it is. Another bout of printing money just does not seem realistic. Not that being an economic disaster will stop such a thing.

The timeline. I and other have posted about the need for resources to actually do the things desired in the "green & BEV" agendas. To supply the rare things such as lithium and cobalt is part. Also the need for copper for only the wind turbines will stress the available supply, It is the timeline I question.
2030 & 2035 are set dates for significant changes in the way large portions of the countries/states do transportation. Six to eleven years from now every new machine formally run on fossil fuels will be drawing electricity from the grid.

 

[sk47]

Two clear issues stand out with this. One is the cost of such a program of upgrade. The other is the current timelines. We are currently suffering high inflation due to massive deficit spending as it is. Another bout of printing money just does not seem realistic. Not that being an economic disaster will stop such a thing.

Hello; A cautionary tale perhaps.
France is caught in a doom-loop and its creditors are starting to notice (msn.com)

 

[sk47]

The agenda is in too much of a hurry of late. Two reasons i can think of. One was the fracking and oil shale tech which allowed for a few more decades of plenty of oil. That freaked out the true believers. The other is they have some seats of power on their side around the world and a hurry up makes sense before that power is lost or when the general public begins to understand the implications implied. Implication being a serious lifestyle change that in a shorthand comment will be a "do without" lifestyle. It will not stop at meat and dairy.

Biden’s cold war: Anti-air conditioner regulations keep piling up (msn.com)

Hello; As I speculated, they will not stop at meat and dairy. They will not stop at ending fossil fuels. A thing is just for humans to be alive requires an impact on the environment. Human sewage perhaps being a basic impact even the zealots cannot pen a regulation to curb. They can, of course, pen regulations about sewage treatment processes but not the fact that many billions of people will make sewage.
Moving on from such a basic impact to the sorts of things we like to have as parts of a lifestyle. The link is about AC. Started decades ago with the R12 used in vehicle air conditioner systems. Also, I think R22 used in refrigerators and house central air units. The ozone layer damage.
The R12 was penned out and replaced with R134A. I think even that is now on the way out.

The idea is to find a way to have things we like such as AC that are not harmful to the environment. I get the goal. Thing is, so far, no such neutral refrigerant has been found that i know of. Making having and servicing an AC home unit more expensive reads a lot like the way the price of gasoline and diesel have been raised.

I did without home AC for much of my life. Even now in my house I have a central air/heat type heat pump system. I rarely use the AC during warm weather. I turn it on a few nights a summer when the humidity is high at night.

Seems a large crew of unelected bureaucrats in alphabet agencies have the say so over fundamental things in our lives. They have the bit in their teeth so will keep making rules.

My LOST cause of fifty years ago was based on an idea that while humans will pollute just by living our lives, that impact will be less if there are fewer people around. The idea was to stabilize the population at 1970 levels, roughly half of what it is now. Had that happened there would be fewer cars needed, fewer houses needed, fewer AC units needed, fewer acres of farmland coved by malls, houses and pavement and so on. To be clear no one was to be killed. By 1970 there were practical birth control methods.
Simply stabilizing the population was not all we had in mind. One example which, had it been adopted, was to include in building codes passive energy saving practices. Simple things such as windows which could be opened to provide natural ventilation. So many new buildings built since then depend completely on energy intensive heating and AC. In many windows cannot be opened at all. Great when you have abundant and cheap energy.
Do not get me wrong it was not so primitive thinking as to only have windows that opened. The idea was to use other practices that could adopted to save energy. (NOTE- even back then we understood about air pollution and smog.)
Things like solar heating were done. That was a system used by some where a system of pipes pumped water to a panel perhaps on a roof where it was warmed by the sun then pumped into storage tanks. over months of summer heat the warmed water built up a lot of thermal energy. The tanks would be buried and insulated or just insulated well. Then during cold spells that saved heat could be used without having to use electricity or burn fuel. Just one example.

 

[sk47]

California Wants To Make Bidirectional Charging Mandatory For New Electric Vehicles (msn.com)

Hello; only a proposed rule so far but shows the direction of the thinking. Will be the end of voluntary participation in B2G or perhaps even B2B.

 

[K4fxd]

Easy fix is to unplug it when charged.

More proof it is a power grab.....

 

[sk47]

The heat pump rollout is an entirely predictable fiasco (msn.com)

Hello; I think this is a UK thing. Seems the government or some powerful agency is going to force folks out of gas heating and into heat pumps soon.
Story is more about the subsidies that anything else. Seems there are monies set aside to help pay the cost of conversion, but not enough monies so all can get some. Only early adopters seem likely to get the money help.

I understand the shock of going from a warm heat to a heat pump. I moved into my current home which has a heat pump. Just never felt warm. I had the thermostat set at 68 degrees and my highest electric bill was $115 that first winter 13 years ago. Found some old bills from the previous owners, their bills were over $300 during winter months 14 years ago.

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