GM is pulling back on EVs

[HoosierDaddy]

That the best you can manage?

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[tripleyellowmustang]

Gregs is a sniveling, boorish, babbling old buffoon, and when he is called on it, he acts like a petulant child stomping his feet, inserting his fingers in his ears and holding his breath until his face turns blue.

 

[AZlb5.0]

Greg’s is a sniveling, boorish, babbling old buffoon, and when he is called on it, he acts like a petulant child stomping his feet, inserting his fingers in his ears and holding his breath until his face turns blue.

Why I don’t explain anything to him nor worry what he thinks of what I can or can’t do!

 

[Burkey]

Free markets and mandates are opposite of each other. Central planning never works.

Like was stated in one of the above linked articles, if governments got out of the way the free market would get us to carbon neutral a lot quicker and without pain.

So in your mind the market is already restricted due to the current mandates (Things like the compulsory fitment of catalytic converters, seatbelts etc)?

Precisely how do you expect a completely free market to fix the problem? What incentive does a fossil fuel company have? Given that they’ve already had decades to do something, doesn‘t it look somewhat like a failed experiment?

 

[AZlb5.0]

So in your mind the market is already restricted due to the current mandates (Things like the compulsory fitment of catalytic converters, seatbelts etc)?

Precisely how do you expect a completely free market to fix the problem? What incentive does a fossil fuel company have? Given that they’ve already had decades to do something, doesn‘t it look somewhat like a failed experiment?

You can’t connect the dots looking forward no one can. You can only connect them looking back.

 

[Burkey]

You can’t connect the dots looking forward no one can. You can only connect them looking back.

To some extent you’re right.
However, it’s pretty reasonable to expect that each manufacturer will do whatever it takes to achieve the maximum market share that they can achieve, as they do right now.
Certain parts of the equation shouldn’t change.

Have a look at the diversity of vehicles available right now and ask yourself why you’d expect that diversity to change as we move forward. I can fairly confidently assure you that Toyota aren’t making coupes, sedans, hatches, vans, wagons, utilitys and who knows what else because they believe in diversity.
.

 

[AZlb5.0]

To some extent you’re right.
However, it’s pretty reasonable to expect that each manufacturer will do whatever it takes to achieve the maximum market share that they can achieve, as they do right now.
Certain parts of the equation shouldn’t change.

Have a look at the diversity of vehicles available right now and ask yourself why you’d expect that diversity to change as we move forward. I can fairly confidently assure you that Toyota aren’t making coupes, sedans, hatches, vans, wagons, utilitys and who knows what else because they believe in diversity.
.

In todays society there are no needs until the manufacturer makes a need for it. Right now smartphones where a need that was made and people can’t seem to live with out them.

This is the argument that many like me have made and maybe you can meet me half way. If the market itself said that they would start manufacturing EVs or Hybrids because that’s how the market is heading then I am 99.9% positive that many even folks like me would have seen this as a positive.

It has become a push a hard push by powerful government elite and unelected agencies world wide. The same ones who laws don’t apply to. Why folks like me question if there’s an ulterior motive. That’s the biggest issue. Plus I have an insight how at least my government works so that’s why I don’t trust those here in the US who make and implement the laws.

Honestly I hope that I am 100% wrong in what I think. It’s just really hard not to have these questions and doubts in my mind when I have seen the brutality the US government has committed all in the name of “freedom” all over the world.

 

[Burkey]

In todays society there are no needs until the manufacturer makes a need for it. Right now smartphones where a need that was made and people can’t seem to live with out them.

This is the argument that many like me have made and maybe you can meet me half way. If the market itself said that they would start manufacturing EVs or Hybrids because that’s how the market is heading then I am 99.9% positive that many even folks like me would have seen this as a positive.

It has become a push a hard push by powerful government elite and unelected agencies world wide. The same ones who laws don’t apply to. Why folks like me question if there’s an ulterior motive. That’s the biggest issue. Plus I have an insight how at least my government works so that’s why I don’t trust those here in the US who make and implement the laws.

Honestly I hope that I am 100% wrong in what I think. It’s just really hard not to have these questions and doubts in my mind when I have seen the brutality the US government has committed all in the name of “freedom” all over the world.

To some extent I agree. New technology tends to find uses that can be marketed. 100%
In the case of the hybrid, you’d have to be nuts to NOT want to buy one when you’re looking at your next vehicle purchase.They’re quite simply a lot cheaper to run.
As I’ve said before, the taxi guys over here absolutely LOVE them.
As for a battery only EV, again, they already fit into a lot of peoples lives quite easily. is the current batch of EV’s appropriate for everyone? Clearly not.

The primary difference between us is that I have faith that the car companies will come up with solutions over the course of the next decade or so. They’re literally being incentivised to do so by the mandates. Is it really that different from them having to solve the issues of constantly changing emissions targets, the removal of lead from gasoline, the introduction of crash testing etc etc? At each and every point, they’ve managed to find solutions that work.

By analogy, catalytic converters didn’t exist until the government forced them to exist. They were the direct consequence of government policy. Do you think they’d exist if the government didn’t intervene?

 

[AZlb5.0]

To some extent I agree. New technology tends to find uses that can be marketed. 100%
In the case of the hybrid, you’d have to be nuts to NOT want to buy one when you’re looking at your next vehicle purchase.They’re quite simply a lot cheaper to run.
As I’ve said before, the taxi guys over here absolutely LOVE them.
As for a battery only EV, again, they already fit into a lot of peoples lives quite easily. is the current batch of EV’s appropriate for everyone? Clearly not.

The primary difference between us is that I have faith that the car companies will come up with solutions over the course of the next decade or so. They’re literally being incentivised to do so by the mandates. Is it really that different from them having to solve the issues of constantly changing emissions targets, the removal of lead from gasoline, the introduction of crash testing etc etc? At each and every point, they’ve managed to find solutions that work.

By analogy, catalytic converters didn’t exist until the government forced them to exist. They were the direct consequence of government policy. Do you think they’d exist if the government didn’t intervene?

I do think eventually catalytic would have made their way into vehicles eventually. Maybe a little later than the actual push. But if you look nation wide here in the US there are places that have emissions test to be able to operate your vehicles and others don’t.

For years one area I lived in AZ there was no need for vehicle emissions testing while just 30 min anway it was a must. Emissions testing has just started a few years ago in that area. So as you can see it’s a hit and miss all over the American continent. There isn’t a compulsory law that encompasses every state nation wide because of different areas within that state depending on population numbers.

Edit: I have to charge my phone so if you ask a question don’t think I’m ignoring you. Need to get this little ankle monitor charged up.

 

[K4fxd]

Precisely how do you expect a completely free market to fix the problem? What incentive does a fossil fuel company have? Given that they’ve already had decades to do something, doesn‘t it look somewhat like a failed experiment?

The free market is driven by what the public wants. If the public wants seatbelts then cars with them will out sell ones without. So all cars will get seatbelts.

If the public wants BEV's over ICE then that is what will get built. There will be no push back or revolt. Like when the ICE buggy replaced the horse buggy. No one forced anyone into a ICE.

But I know you know this.

 

[sk47]

So in your mind the market is already restricted due to the current mandates (Things like the compulsory fitment of catalytic converters, seatbelts etc)?

Precisely how do you expect a completely free market to fix the problem? What incentive does a fossil fuel company have? Given that they’ve already had decades to do something, doesn‘t it look somewhat like a failed experiment?

Hello; Thing is the fossil fuel/ ICE industry has made tremendous progress over the decades. I got my drivers license in 1963 and drove 1950's cars for a long time. They were not very reliable, got poor fuel economy and started to wear out not long after 50,000 miles. Bias tires might get you 15,000 to 20,000 miles.
The auto/oil companies made good progress up until the last couple of decades. Common for an engine + chassis to last decades and not wear out nor rust out. I had some 1970's cars that routinely got 40 MPG.
Now the MPG estimates are often in the mid 20's MPG range on even smaller cars. Lots of this is due to government mandates adding weight and complexity. Government mandates can fall good or poor, lately more to the poor.

Side story- went to test the new car market today. There is a Subaru Impresa base model with a manual in Knoxville TN. manuals are getting hard to find so i went in. Too early yet. They are not adding window sticker markups now but the list of fees was impressive. To the point of the story the rear view mirror. On the test drive the sun reflected off windshield of the car behind me and to the rearview and in my eyes. I went to flip the mirror to night and could not. New cars have an automatic dimmer feature now. The sales lady did not know how to make it work in daylight.

 

[K4fxd]

Government mandates in the 1970's gave us 35 years of crappy cars.

I remember 125 HP V 8's that got 18 MPG on the freeway. Today we have 460 HP V8's that get 26 MPG on the freeway.

It took 35 years for the tech to match up with the mandates. So instead of letting the market dictate the future Gov mandates kill the high HP ICE cars.

Hybrids are a great match for 95% of the population, yet they are being passed over in favor of a system that will not work in mass. This is the problem with central planning and mandates.

 

[tripleyellowmustang]

Government mandates in the 1970's gave us 35 years of crappy cars.

I remember 125 HP V 8's that got 18 MPG on the freeway. Today we have 460 HP V8's that get 26 MPG on the freeway.

It took 35 years for the tech to match up with the mandates. So instead of letting the market dictate the future Gov mandates kill the high HP ICE cars.

Hybrids are a great match for 95% of the population, yet they are being passed over in favor of a system that will not work in mass. This is the problem with central planning and mandates.

Remember this little jewel, 1974 Mustang ll?

 

[Gregs24]

By analogy, catalytic converters didn’t exist until the government forced them to exist. They were the direct consequence of government policy. Do you think they’d exist if the government didn’t intervene?

Exactly. Catalysts ONLY happened because they were the only way to meet emissions targets set by governments in law. Without the law - no catalysts. Yes cars are sold in markets where they may not be needed, but only because car makers are not going to sell two varieties of one car when it is cheaper to make them all the same.

Same with leaded fuel, DDT, and a myriad other things where the free market would still be producing them today if it were not for legal bans. Glyphosate is a perfect example where is is still sold in countries that have not banned it, don't expect Monsanto to go all considerate and stop selling it when there is money to be made.

I'm afraid it all comes back to the 'freedom' fighters again - as long as they can do what they want they don't care about others freedoms at all.

 

[kz]

Exactly. Catalysts ONLY happened because they were the only way to meet emissions targets set by governments in law. Without the law - no catalysts.

Making argument that catalytic converters would happen without regulations on a forum where just about first (idiotic) mod is to remove them is one of the most bizarre I've seen to date.

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