Gauges set up!

[mejohn50]

@GR1MxREAPER we may have chatted a bit in a Facebook thread.

@mejohn50 the problem with both the banks and Aeroforce gauges regarding freezing data is due to them using the OBD2 protocol to poll information at the diagnostic port. The diagnostic port is typically assigned the lowest priority on CANBUS controllers and slow anyway, but with this Roush strategy the ECU gets very busy with rapid load changes, especially transitioning between boost and vacuum. If I "tap" the throttle rapidly the gauge will freeze for seconds at a time, update figures, freeze again, etc, it's not reliable. The next part is that neither allow you to write or configure PIDs (I'll admit this is an assumption I'm making about the Interceptor product range solely based on them offering them for specific car models and year ranges).

A device that will just listen to the whole CANBUS doesn't need to poll and wait for a response from whatever module you're trying to get data from and will refresh as fast as that module is updating. I apologize I'm not prepared with links etc, HPT forums had a discussion about CANBUS over OBD2 vs serial, and then CANchecked offer "gauge clusters" to run on CANBUS as well as some OBD2 type gauges, I did try find where they worded the difference but cannot seem to find it again. I wish I still "bookmarked" pages like I used to.

I have no experience with the Interceptor and the Roush OS. I can verify with 100% certainty that the AeroForce Interceptor can be connected directly to the CAN bus and poll data with no issues. I have tested it in that configuration with the Whipple OS and the OEM OS for my car. It didn’t matter if I had it connected via the OBD port or hard wired to the CAN bus, I had no issues with it providing data for my selected PIDs.

I have no idea what the polling rate is for the Interceptor and I can’t verify what the polling rate differences are for various modules or connections to the CAN bus.

What I can verify with 100% certainty is that the Ford-specific Interceptor only pulls data from the CAN bus no matter how it’s connected. Is it at some high data rate? No idea. Is the data rate higher than nearly any human can react to a change in the data? Most likely. How is it doing it? No idea.

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[CarDad29]

Decided to take the time, sorry for the double post...

https://us.powertunedigital.com/pages/can-vs-obd2

From there:

Unlike OBD2, you don't have to ask CAN devices for information, they rapidly broadcast their data to the CAN network so any other device on that network can read the data they want in real time. Not only that, unlike OBD2 - CAN devices can include the status of multiple datasource values in a SINGLE message - they are not limited to sending and requesting the value of one single datasource at a time.

Although it varies per application, we have found an average round trip to request and receive a single value via OBD2 is 50ms, 25 milliseconds in each direction. This means we slowly ask the car for the answer to each question of speed, RPM, temperatures and we get lag as the outcome. To have a product that operates smooth and lag free we end up wanting to ask the questions a lot faster than we can get answers!

Not mentioned is most diagnostic ports will probably only update at 250ms when things get hectic, and end up missing a lot of packets.

I don't believe the demand for this is there to justify making multi-gauges as the money to get into CAN seems reserved to those with SEM and/or looking for full clusters. Wonder if we can generate enough interest to "scale down" a cluster like those offered by Powertune Digital (check out their product line from the link) into a ~2inch multi-gauge.

 

[jono12345]

With the fuel pressure and oil pressure readings, are those calculated values? Im not sure if that's still the same with gen3 cars. If so a dedicated sensor for each might not be bad.

I just installed the glowshift fuel pressure sensor adapter and it went on great with no leaks (knock on wood). I used the AEM x Series gauges which I believe are can-bus enabled so you can wire them into various loggers.

 

[mejohn50]

Decided to take the time, sorry for the double post...

https://us.powertunedigital.com/pages/can-vs-obd2

From there:


Not mentioned is most diagnostic ports will probably only update at 250ms when things get hectic, and end up missing a lot of packets.

I don't believe the demand for this is there to justify making multi-gauges as the money to get into CAN seems reserved to those with SEM and/or looking for full clusters. Wonder if we can generate enough interest to "scale down" a cluster like those offered by Powertune Digital (check out their product line from the link) into a ~2inch multi-gauge.

I cut the OBD port connector off my Interceptor cable and wired it straight to the same CAN bus connection that I’m using for my PCMTEC flex fuel sensor. No issues. No changes with perceived data rates on my Interceptor gauge. Again, I want to be clear, I have no idea what the issues are with what you are experiencing with your specific setup. I just know with absolute certainty that the Interceptor works being directly connected to the CAN bus somewhere other than the OBD port.

I also know that I have about a dozen books on programming C for embedded systems sitting in front of me because the specific CAN bus functionality I want doesn’t exist.

That’s the real issue with our platform. It’s a bunch of boomers who just want to buy a kit or a package that’s plug and play. Very few people are doing much in the way of innovation.

I’m rooting for you to find something better than what’s available, I’m just not optimistic.

 

[Brigadir]

Just FYI, behind OBDII port there’s gateway that has all CAN busses. If you’d like to preserve the factory harness, an option is to order the gateway extension harness and T-cut your gauge there. Then you will be able to disconnect it simply by unplugging the extension harness

 

[CarDad29]

The vehicle specific Interceptor gauges may actually listen to CANBus traffic. At some point I'll make time to reach out to each vendor (other is CAN checked) and find out more.

CAN Checked states their product will "support OBD2 too" essentially, leading me to believe they do in fact just listen to the network rather than polling VIA OBD.

https://www.canchecked.de/produkte/

They have a PID database file uploaded by a user for a Ford Mustang, but I don't know which generation/ECU or if Ford changed PIDs much throughout the years. The nice thing is though, they might help with implementing the addresses if we're willing to find them. Banks has zero interest in expanding parameter lists beyond OBD2. These gauges are compatible with ISO 11898-2 and SAE J2284.

I'm with the boomers here, LOL, but I'll get a CAN sniffer and find the ID's I'm after if someone else will learn C for me (I like my ladders and blocks thank you) and make a UI. The MFD15 seems closest to a packaged solution. You can "customize" the display using a mobile phone app that's already there, and display up to 6 parameters compared to 2 with the Interceptors. That price-point makes me lose some interest though. We need another chip revolution to bring these down ha ha. The MFD28 could probably fit somewhere neatly too....

 

[GR1MxREAPER]

@GR1MxREAPER we may have chatted a bit in a Facebook thread.

@mejohn50 the problem with both the banks and Aeroforce gauges regarding freezing data is due to them using the OBD2 protocol to poll information at the diagnostic port. The diagnostic port is typically assigned the lowest priority on CANBUS controllers and slow anyway, but with this Roush strategy the ECU gets very busy with rapid load changes, especially transitioning between boost and vacuum. If I "tap" the throttle rapidly the gauge will freeze for seconds at a time, update figures, freeze again, etc, it's not reliable. The next part is that neither allow you to write or configure PIDs (I'll admit this is an assumption I'm making about the Interceptor product range solely based on them offering them for specific car models and year ranges).

A device that will just listen to the whole CANBUS doesn't need to poll and wait for a response from whatever module you're trying to get data from and will refresh as fast as that module is updating. I apologize I'm not prepared with links etc, HPT forums had a discussion about CANBUS over OBD2 vs serial, and then CANchecked offer "gauge clusters" to run on CANBUS as well as some OBD2 type gauges, I did try find where they worded the difference but cannot seem to find it again. I wish I still "bookmarked" pages like I used to.

What you sound like your describing is a tuning device. The banks and AeroForce are instant information there is no delay or anything.

 

[MinDseTz]

Anybody messing with Carduino or CANBUS type gauges? I've stumbled upon a few projects, I don't necessarily want to get into coding to have it (like writing software for an app to configure a display etc) but I'd really like to have data available all the time at higher rates than the low priority diagnostic port. Looking for something like the Banks iDash but that monitors CANBUS traffic rather than polling through OBD2.

Old reply but yes it's not too hard to TAP into the CAN bus and sniff the data directly. If you want an easy implementation for CAN bus data rates, you can try an app called RealDash. This requires a device you'll need to make or buy. A cheap option is something like WiCAN USB. It already has realdash's CAN parsing protocol built in. You can also build the UI yourself as long as you have a way to parse the data. It's not hard, just tedious. I have dbc files and xml (config for realdash) if need them.

Also, it's not so much the low priority of the diagnostic port that makes simpler setups so slow, its the fact they are interacting via UDS. The act of requesting data via a PID (0x22) or from memory (0x23) is more time consuming than the low priority. Unfortunately, there is quite a lot of data you can't passively sniff on these modern cars, but everything you might want a gauge for should be possible passively.

 

[GR1MxREAPER]

Why are people cutting and tapping into the harness lol.. the vehicle specific gauges show a ton of info. What are you trying to see?

 

[MoneyPit#53]

Anybody know where to tap for headlight power? My Innovate MTX gauges require the “headlight power wire” for the dimmer function to work.

Thanks in advance!

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