Ford Racing ProCal Tune

[lizardrko]

Regarding inter cooler and top end power, the dyno graph on the FP calibration on FP's website shows a quick fall off after about 6100 rpm. That dyno was on a bone stock engine and that fall off is in large part due to the FMIC's pressure drop and heat soak.

Take a look at the dyno's from fox, (there's one on a user review from CJ Pony parts under the FP calibration a user had posted) and the recent one. I think every one of them had an upgraded FMIC except maybe one and they show a relatively flat top end.

Since I'm working with ATM (Dave) to test their FMIC, I will getting mine up on the dyno in the next couple weeks (currently have the Levels 20x14x3.5 with cast end tanks) before I make any changes then again after I install the ATM FMIC. Should be pretty interesting to see how it all starts to come together from a numbers standpoint.

So basically with an aftermarket FMIC + FP tune, the max power will be held at the upper RPM range as opposed to dropping off? I still feel a drop off in power with just the FP tune at those ranges. Not nearly as bad as stock though. So a FMIC will pretty much address that even more due to the extra cooling? Im pretty new to turbo motors so the whole intercooler benefits at what ranges after pulls are all new to me lol, thanks for the help.

Sponsored

 

[TheLion]

So basically with an aftermarket FMIC + FP tune, the max power will be held at the upper RPM range as opposed to dropping off? I still feel a drop off in power with just the FP tune at those ranges. Not nearly as bad as stock though. So a FMIC will pretty much address that even more due to the extra cooling? Im pretty new to turbo motors so the whole intercooler benefits at what ranges after pulls are all new to me lol, thanks for the help.

You'll still get power drop off at the upper most range (about the last 800 RPM mostly, from 6000 to 6800 aka fuel cutoff). There's limitations of the turbo compressor efficiency and it starts to run out of steam right at the top end of the engine RPM range as you move out of the turbo's efficiency island. That's why bigger turbo's are popular for making more peak horse power, because you can size them so their efficiency island is centered around a higher RPM range, so the engine is making more torque in the upper RPM range rather than in the lower.

Assuming you can generate the same torque at the higher RPM range as the stock turbo can in the low RPM range, your resulting HP is larger (HP is a ratio of Torque and RPM, if torque remained flat through the entire RPM range, say 400ft-lbs, your HP would climb in a straight line all the way to red line). The trade off is that you may have a narrower RPM range where you making good power with a bigger turbo and you loose some of the low end responsiveness and grunt that's useful for most daily driving. It's also useful for circuit track / auto cross where you can't always keep the car in a certain RPM range, that low end grunt helps you "get out of the whole" as they say. Board but less peaky (think rainbow vs. mountain top peak) power bands have their uses and applications as do peaky and narrow power bands.

However the drop off in torque with the stock turbo will be much less with a good inter cooler as your compensating for one of the negative effects of moving out of the compressor's efficiency range (aka more heat which a good FMIC can manage much better than an improperly sized one). As the turbo runs out of it's efficiency range you typically see higher back pressure in the exhaust side and higher outlet temps on the compressor side. While the turbo may be able to safety generate up to x PSI at xxxx RPM, it may do so with greater energy loss the further out of it's efficiency island you move. That = lower torque output from the engine per a unit of fuel.

If the engine has to expel more energy to drive the turbine to make the same boost pressure, it's going to make less power = a fall off in the torque curve (there are of course more efficiency losses in a engine simply due to RPM / mechanical timing limits etc as well to contend with which are present even in naturally aspirated engines) assuming you aren't simply upping the boost pressure or adding timing to compensate (both of which add greater risk / wear / stress to what ever degree you push to).

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/compressor_maps

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/choke_line

FP is able to get the gains they are mostly through the fact that they don't have to contend with 87 octane fuel requirements (bane of all TDI engines) and EPA fuel efficiency requirements which really hampers how aggressive you can be with fueling / timing etc. You can fail to meet EPA fuel efficiency requirements (consumption) but still pass emissions (exhaust pollutants). But I digress, hopefully I have at least answered your question about how the FMIC can help with the top end power. It will simply allow the engine to make as much power as it can safely do at the top end as dictated by the FP calibration.

With the stock inter cooler your top end will fade faster as the efficiency rapidly drops, especially in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears. The PCM will then start to pull timing and close the throttle body to keep the engine operating safely (by sacrificing power output). Some of that top end fade is due to the inter cooler (which you can fix) while some of it is due to the limitations of the turbo and engine's mechanical limits (such as valve timing, stroke, exhaust ports, intake ports etc.). You can't fix those limits without going for a custom turbo and built engine. That's why an inter cooler will significantly less but not eliminate the power drop off at the top end.

 

[lizardrko]

You'll still get power drop off at the upper most range (about the last 800 RPM mostly, from 6000 to 6800 aka fuel cutoff). There's limitations of the turbo compressor efficiency and it starts to run out of steam right at the top end of the engine RPM range as you move out of the turbo's efficiency island. That's why bigger turbo's are popular for making more peak horse power, because you can size them so their efficiency island is centered around a higher RPM range, so the engine is making more torque in the upper RPM range rather than in the lower.

Assuming you can generate the same torque at the higher RPM range as the stock turbo can in the low RPM range, your resulting HP is larger (HP is a ratio of Torque and RPM, if torque remained flat through the entire RPM range, say 400ft-lbs, your HP would climb in a straight line all the way to red line). The trade off is that you may have a narrower RPM range where you making good power with a bigger turbo and you loose some of the low end responsiveness and grunt that's useful for most daily driving. It's also useful for circuit track / auto cross where you can't always keep the car in a certain RPM range, that low end grunt helps you "get out of the whole" as they say. Board but less peaky (think rainbow vs. mountain top peak) power bands have their uses and applications as do peaky and narrow power bands.

However the drop off in torque with the stock turbo will be much less with a good inter cooler as your compensating for one of the negative effects of moving out of the compressor's efficiency range (aka more heat which a good FMIC can manage much better than an improperly sized one). As the turbo runs out of it's efficiency range you typically see higher back pressure in the exhaust side and higher outlet temps on the compressor side. While the turbo may be able to safety generate up to x PSI at xxxx RPM, it may do so with greater energy loss the further out of it's efficiency island you move. That = lower torque output from the engine per a unit of fuel.

If the engine has to expel more energy to drive the turbine to make the same boost pressure, it's going to make less power = a fall off in the torque curve (there are of course more efficiency losses in a engine simply due to RPM / mechanical timing limits etc as well to contend with which are present even in naturally aspirated engines) assuming you aren't simply upping the boost pressure or adding timing to compensate (both of which add greater risk / wear / stress to what ever degree you push to).

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/compressor_maps

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/choke_line

FP is able to get the gains they are mostly through the fact that they don't have to contend with 87 octane fuel requirements (bane of all TDI engines) and EPA fuel efficiency requirements which really hampers how aggressive you can be with fueling / timing etc. You can fail to meet EPA fuel efficiency requirements (consumption) but still pass emissions (exhaust pollutants). But I digress, hopefully I have at least answered your question about how the FMIC can help with the top end power. It will simply allow the engine to make as much power as it can safely do at the top end as dictated by the FP calibration.

With the stock inter cooler your top end will fade faster as the efficiency rapidly drops, especially in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears. The PCM will then start to pull timing and close the throttle body to keep the engine operating safely (by sacrificing power output). Some of that top end fade is due to the inter cooler (which you can fix) while some of it is due to the limitations of the turbo and engine's mechanical limits (such as valve timing, stroke, exhaust ports, intake ports etc.). You can't fix those limits without going for a custom turbo and built engine. That's why an inter cooler will significantly less but not eliminate the power drop off at the top end.

Yes that helped immensely. Always appreciate the detailed answers! Ill be getting a FMIC soon!

 

[TheLion]

Another reason a good FMIC can really help the top end (and bottom end, but it's impacts are greater on the ecoboost 2.3L because of the turbo sizing) is that with higher flow rates your dwell time is less for the charge air (meaning the air spends less time in the inter cooler so it has less time to transfer thermal energy).

As engine RPM increases air flow rates increase as well (more cycles per a unit of time, each cycle consumes about the same volume of air = higher flow rate). So poor inter coolers efficiency issues become more apparent at the top end.

That's why so many people report the top end of a bone stock EB to just fall on it's face, like the power just drops off a cliff. It's a combination of the stock PCM tuning but also of the inter cooler. I noticed a lot less fade at the top end just by upgrading the FMIC before I had even tuned (that was my first upgrade).

While it wasn't exactly strong and it still tapered rapidly, it didn't taper as bad and it was much more consistent on hot days. 3rd gear actually pulled a little instead of feeling like my old 2.3L ford focus with 165hp when I had a full passenger load. The combination of the FP calibration and FMIC is really good, there's a little fade still at the top end, but it's quite a bit less than before, no more than any NA engine I've ever driven (most have a peak in their power band about 500 to 1000 rpm before redline then power starts to go flat or fade once you move past that point as torque drops off).

Here's a dyno of a 5.0 (blue line is stock):

Notice how peaky that power band is? Also notice how after 6500 RPM the torque curve (and hence the power curve) starts to fall off rapidly? Now the EB's peak is much broader and flatter, it still falls off, but not as fast and you make power much earlier (meaning there's more area under the curve compared to a naturally aspirated car making 335 HP like the Camaro V6 for example).

People on this forum boo hoo the stock turbo like it's a piece of crap, but in reality for a factory turbo it's pretty darn good and it's reasonably sized for the targeted power output.

Here's the ecoboost 2.3L with the FP calibration and the stock inter cooler (which is what this customer tested with after 1,000 miles so the octane learn had time to kick in). Basically that top end won't drop off as fast and during hot days / hard driving or multi gear pulls (2-3-4) you'll make closer to the stated power. This is at the wheels, not at the crank:

Here's the Ford Performance dyno (at the crank, so about 10~15% higher numbers as there's no drive train losses):

Like I said, making 300HP+ crank (or about 255HP+ at the wheels after a 15% drive train loss) from 3800 RPM all the way to 6100 RPM which a RPM bandwidth of 2300 RPM in that power range. That's why EB's are faster than their peak power might suggest, because their power band is so broad. They best on a track through where that broad power band and 175lbs light weight can really be put to use.

Here's a dyno from a stock 2015 Subaru WRX STI (quite a bit more expensive car), they are making only 225HP (higher drive train losses due to AWD so its a bit lower, probably about 25% drive train loss as their stated crank HP is 305) at the wheels from 5000 RPM to 6000 RPM and a much peakier power bandwidth (they make the most of their power though because their AWD allows them a good launch every time with a lot less effort):

 

[TheLion]

Take a a look at the VMP dyno of a stock mustang ecoboost with just the Levels inter cooler upgrade: https://www.vmpperformance.com/Levels-Performance-2015-Ecoboost-Mustang-Street-I-p/lvl-must-street.htm

Note the power drop off from 6000 RPM to 6500 RPM is only about 25~30 HP. Look at the Ford Performance calibration engine dyno or the customer at the wheels dyno from a user review on CJ parts, the power drop off is close to 40~50 HP in that same RPM range. About 50% of that slope is from the inter cooler heat soak and pressure drop (it's poor flow volume and cooling performance really begins to hamper performance at the top end).

Here's ATPs finding if you scroll to the bottom: http://www.atpturbo.com/platform/MustangEcoboost.html

And here's FFTech's Writeup: http://www.ecoboostmustang.org/forum/mustang-ecoboost-performance/3842-fftec-torture-test-2015-mustang-ecoboost-intercoolers-oem-garrett-private.html

How many times will we need to debate the inter cooler issue? Lol.

 

[jtmat]

So basically with an aftermarket FMIC + FP tune, the max power will be held at the upper RPM range as opposed to dropping off? I still feel a drop off in power with just the FP tune at those ranges. Not nearly as bad as stock though. So a FMIC will pretty much address that even more due to the extra cooling? Im pretty new to turbo motors so the whole intercooler benefits at what ranges after pulls are all new to me lol, thanks for the help.

For this car, you only need an intercooler if you are going to track the car or if you simply want an intercooler... to say that you have one.

 

[Arno_ecobeast]

Haha i knew you would be the opposing force JTMAT ;)
But again, disagree. A turbo car makes power from pouring extra air into the cylinders. If the air is hot it pulls timing. In summer, when most people can drive the car safely hard it heat soaks.
My stock FMIC would heat soak after a run through from 2nd to 4th gear once warmed up and then never come back down, temps where just high. After swapping it was nearly 10deg C (50 F) cooler. This is charge air temp. and it wasn't even going balls to the wall. It was just spirited driving, back road, shift at say 5000rpm.
I could feel the difference in power on a cool night to a warm day very easily. Once i upgraded the car felt the same, day night, hot day, cool day... This is just driving normally.
Then when i did track the car, it could get hammered all afternoon without suffering heatsoak. There are no negatives to get it, if you are a sceptic then at least you get the same but with cooler air. at best you never get timing pulled.

 

[solodogg]

For this car, you only need an intercooler if you are going to track the car or if you simply want an intercooler... to say that you have one.

Good god, give it up already. I think someone could hand you a free one, show you a 40 horsepower gain on the top end, and you would still be on here arguing about how it's a track only modification.

Do you also run crude oil in your engine because additives are just an old tale, and not really needed? Clearly you have NEVER proven your crap theory in any way, yet the opposite has been proven many times. If you want to keep convincing yourself that it's not needed, by all means go for it. I have driven many turbo cars that have had more than adequate intercoolers from the factory, but this one was DEFINITELY not one of them.

If you are so much against intercoolers and their positive effects, I will gladly swap your stock intercooler for a length of piping to connect your hot side and cold side together. Intercooler delete FTW!!!

 

[lizardrko]

I can understand a catch can being debatable, but an intercooler? There is nothing but bashing of the stock IC and how easy you heat soak even after one or 2 pulls. Even the high end of one pull, there is power loss. Not saying people dont embellish some but its definitely not an imaginary issue even for spirited street use like my intentions. If there is any evidence that I will experience no heat soak what so ever after 5-6 1st-3rd (maybe middle of third, dont feel like going over 100mph LOL) gear pulls back to back, with the outside temp being ~80 please post it and I will end my hunt for an IC. But everyone seems to experience heat soak even after 1 pull. Accessport logs people post seem to support that claim. But if there is anything saying otherwise, please post.

Hey Lion, what do you think of the mountune IC compared to other stage 1 ICs? I saw that the mountune is a tube and fin design like stock as opposed to bar and plate that most aftermarket FMICs are. Not sure how much that makes a difference.

https://www.mountuneusa.com/mountune-Intercooler-Upgrade-Mustang-EcoBoost-p/2523-ic-ba.htm

 

[TheLion]

I can understand a catch can being debatable, but an intercooler? There is nothing but bashing of the stock IC and how easy you heat soak even after one or 2 pulls. Even the high end of one pull, there is power loss. Not saying people dont embellish some but its definitely not an imaginary issue even for spirited street use like my intentions. If there is any evidence that I will experience no heat soak what so ever after 5-6 1st-3rd (maybe middle of third, dont feel like going over 100mph LOL) gear pulls back to back, with the outside temp being ~80 please post it and I will end my hunt for an IC. But everyone seems to experience heat soak even after 1 pull. Accessport logs people post seem to support that claim. But if there is anything saying otherwise, please post.

Hey Lion, what do you think of the mountune IC compared to other stage 1 ICs? I saw that the mountune is a tube and fin design like stock as opposed to bar and plate that most aftermarket FMICs are. Not sure how much that makes a difference.

https://www.mountuneusa.com/mountune-Intercooler-Upgrade-Mustang-EcoBoost-p/2523-ic-ba.htm

Tube and fin designs are generally made for cost purposes. They are cheap to manufacture and have a poor surface area to volume ratio (which = higher pressure drop and less cooling capacity) compared to bar and plate designs of the same external dimensions. They also lack thermal mass (think of it like a thermal fly wheel, where it limits the rate of change of temperature due to mass).

Bar and plate work well for several reasons (but are significantly more expensive when your mass producing a car so tube and fin are often used for OE applications) which I just mentioned above.

I would suggest going with MAP, CP-e or even Mishimoto if you want a Stage 1 type that will prevent heat soak. Once you start driving with just the FMIC changed you will easily be able to tell the difference at both the top end and all of the upper gears like 3rd, 4th and 5th.

I think you can probably install both the MAP and Mishimoto without removing the bumper, but the CP-e unit is a bit deeper and beefier so it will require bumper removal. All 3 of them will allow you to keep the active grill shudders which help a bit with fuel mileage and possibly emissions (higher cylinder head temps are better for emissions purposes) etc.

Take a look at this article by Spearco: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/0304-turp-intercooler/

http://www.americanmuscle.com/1516-mustang-intercoolers-charge-pipes.html

 

[lizardrko]

Tube and fin designs are generally made for cost purposes. They are cheap to manufacture and have a poor surface area to volume ratio (which = higher pressure drop and less cooling capacity) compared to bar and plate designs of the same external dimensions. They also lack thermal mass (think of it like a thermal fly wheel, where it limits the rate of change of temperature due to mass).

Bar and plate work well for several reasons (but are significantly more expensive when your mass producing a car so tube and fin are often used for OE applications) which I just mentioned above.

I would suggest going with MAP, CP-e or even Mishimoto if you want a Stage 1 type that will prevent heat soak. Once you start driving with just the FMIC changed you will easily be able to tell the difference at both the top end and all of the upper gears like 3rd, 4th and 5th.

I think you can probably install both the MAP and Mishimoto without removing the bumper, but the CP-e unit is a bit deeper and beefier so it will require bumper removal. All 3 of them will allow you to keep the active grill shudders which help a bit with fuel mileage and possibly emissions (higher cylinder head temps are better for emissions purposes) etc.

Take a look at this article by Spearco: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/0304-turp-intercooler/

http://www.americanmuscle.com/1516-mustang-intercoolers-charge-pipes.html

Well I just ordered the MAP street FMIC. Thanks for the help. Ill report how I like it with the FP tune. It will take 2 weeks to ship though as they are currently building a new batch.

 

[TheLion]

You'll love it when combined with the FP calibration and CAI. Since you have an auto PP you should be good on gearing, no need to go lower unless you setting the car up for drag racing only. Swapping out a diff is a major pain in the rear (but worth it if you happen to have a base model).

 

[jtmat]

Good god, give it up already. I think someone could hand you a free one, show you a 40 horsepower gain on the top end, and you would still be on here arguing about how it's a track only modification.

40 hp on the top end, at what speed?

So you are saying from 0-70 mph I will achieve 40 more hp on my stock intercooler? That sounds amazing...

And did you bother to read the information TheLion put out (not his opinionated novels, but the links)? That look like hwy driving to you? Or did you bother to read the dyno from the person on this forum? Oh, did not give you what you wanted so that was quickly forgotten. It did validate what I stated about making multiple 0-60 runs in my car and not "going slow after one pull" as some have stated on here. Ha, ha, ha....

No, I don't argue about this since some of you are sold on the fact an intercooler will give your car magical powers driving on the hwy. And that is fine...

Wonder if I would be foolish to make a $1000 bet that no one could leave me driving legal hwy speed for four hours around the DMV (where the speed does not go over 55 mph)? Surely with an intercooler, they should be able to dust me.

But I won't waste any more time than this email.... go enjoy your intercooler. Don't get so upset because someone jumps in and states a simple fact.

 

[Chez]

40 hp on the top end, at what speed?

So you are saying from 0-70 mph I will achieve 40 more hp on my stock intercooler? That sounds amazing...

And did you bother to read the information TheLion put out (not his opinionated novels, but the links)? That look like hwy driving to you? Or did you bother to read the dyno from the person on this forum? Oh, did not give you what you wanted so that was quickly forgotten. It did validate what I stated about making multiple 0-60 runs in my car and not "going slow after one pull" as some have stated on here. Ha, ha, ha....

No, I don't argue about this since some of you are sold on the fact an intercooler will give your car magical powers driving on the hwy. And that is fine...

Wonder if I would be foolish to make a $1000 bet that no one could leave me driving legal hwy speed for four hours around the DMV (where the speed does not go over 55 mph)? Surely with an intercooler, they should be able to dust me.

But I won't waste any more time than this email.... go enjoy your intercooler. Don't get so upset because someone jumps in and states a simple fact.

Why do you feel the need to shit in every thread about intercoolers? You don't want one. Fine. Leave your B.S. out of the threads where people are trying to improve their cars. It does nothing and at this point you just look sad.

 

[jtmat]

Maybe because this is not a thread about intercoolers?

You might want to pull away from the keyboard... no need for all of that. Make an argument... no need for personal attacks...

You are in PA, maybe we could meet and you take my $1000... all legal, no street racing. Just country driving or hwy driving, your pick. Show me how you can use that 40 hp to leave me in the dust while driving street legal. Show me the power of that intercooler!!!! Make me a believer.

At any rate, I'm done talking about this until next time... when the covo starts sounding ridiculous again. I need to strap an intercooler to my co-worker... that would give the entire office gains.

BTW, this thread is about the FP tune...

Sponsored