Ford Racing ProCal Tune

[Glenn G]

Quick physics lesson about pressure drop in intercoolers, all intercoolers have it but it's not a bad thing to a certain extent. Let me explain
a given mass of air at 200 degrees leaving the turbo occupies a hell of a lot more room than the same mass of air at ambient temperature., I'd be weary of an intercooler that didn't have at least a 1.5 to 2 psi drop across the core because that means it's not cooling the charge much. Second ly you do need to build some restriction into your core. The longer the air remains in the core, the more time it has to transfer heat.
To accurately mesure pressure drop, one needs to see the air pressure at the intercooler entrance work which our cars do not have a sensor. You also need the temperature for which our cars also have no sensor, lastly you need to measure the mass of air moving in for which we also have no sensor.. Ford however does some clever math to infer those readings. We do have sensors at the exit of the cooler for pressure and temp. Once you have this data you can calculate what the required drop should be for the temp drop.

Sponsored

 

[TheLion]

So if I already have the FRPP tune + CAI, upgrading the intercooler won't add any power? This seems antithetical to what I've been hearing.

Also, I've heard that an aftermarket intercooler requires a tune after install, does this mean I'd have to re-tune the vehicle to get any benefit of an added intercooler? Or if it already has a tune then it's g2g? Or is this all just nonsense and I was previously misguided?

It's not considered a power adder because your not adjusting timing, adding boost, fueling, changing altitude or temperature compensation maps in the ecu, changing the exhaust flow or turbine spool up rates etc. The ECU is still controlling all of those variables, your just providing it ideal intake air temperatures which will allow it to make the most power it is programmed to allow.

It only add's power because the stock FMIC falls outside of it's efficiency range so quickly. The stock FMIC will make good power, but only for a very short time, 1~2 gears before it saturates and that's why people report power increases because the stock engine often doesn't even make its rated power after just a few gears of WOT.

The PCM software already is architected to adapt to changing intake temperatures. An inter cooler simply keeps them in the more ideal range, which is as close to ambient as possible.

 

[lizardrko]

Agreed, the CP-e is the best stock location / stage 1 inter coolers available. It's a high efficiency unit with very low pressure drop compared to stock. The MAP stage 1 is also very good as an alternative.

Any of the stage 1 inter coolers in reality, even the MM, which is probably one of the most popular, are still a huge improvement over stock, but the CP-e unit has the best performance of the stage 1 units.

If you want to go full size, Levels has a really good unit at it's price point, same cost as most of the stage 1 FMIC's, but you get quite a bit of additional cooling capacity and possibly a lower pressure drop yet due to the optimal core shape. Disadvantage is you either need to modify or remove the grill shudders.

I'm looking at possibly testing the ATM stepped core with it's unique rounded bar design in comparison to the Levels to see if there's any performance improvement from the combination of the stepped core and rounded bars. The ATM unit is supposed to be the top dog in terms of cooling capacity / pressure drop as far as full sized street cores go (not going to get into the race cores like the Levels Race or Wagner Evo 2 etc.).

Does the cpe require removing the bumper? The instructions say to, but I saw MAP install theirs without removing it. I do not know of cpe is just a hair bigger to not fit. I really do not want to remove the bumper lol ive done it before and dont want to risk it again.

Can you also explain the decrease in throttle response that someone saw after installing MAP?

 

[TheLion]

Quick physics lesson about pressure drop in intercoolers, all intercoolers have it but it's not a bad thing to a certain extent. Let me explain
a given mass of air at 200 degrees leaving the turbo occupies a hell of a lot more room than the same mass of air at ambient temperature., I'd be weary of an intercooler that didn't have at least a 1.5 to 2 psi drop across the core because that means it's not cooling the charge much. Second ly you do need to build some restriction into your core. The longer the air remains in the core, the more time it has to transfer heat.
To accurately measure pressure drop, one needs to see the air pressure at the inter-cooler entrance work which our cars do not have a sensor. You also need the temperature for which our cars also have no sensor, lastly you need to measure the mass of air moving in for which we also have no sensor.. Ford however does some clever math to infer those readings. We do have sensors at the exit of the cooler for pressure and temp

Agreed, some restriction is necessary, if there's not adequate dwell time there will not be adequate transfer. Too much dwell time and there's inadequate flow rates, while temps may be ideal, volume of flow is not. Thermal transfer and flow rates move in opposite directions, so it's an act of balancing flow rate (pressure drop) vs. temperature drop.

But some games can be played. You can get a lower pressure drop and a good transfer rate by using a physically larger core because there's so much more surface area your able to transfer more thermal energy at once without relying on longer dwell times. The stock inter cooler has very low thermal mass, low fin density and a relatively small surface area so it needs a long dwell time to be even somewhat effective.

A good inter cooler should be able to achieve around 1~1.5 psi, possibly slightly less if more exotic designs like the ATM. Also pressure drop is relative to flow rates. You may see a 0.5 PSI drop at 500 CFM but 1 PSI drop at 1000 CFM. So the FMIC needs to be sized properly to the application. I have no idea what the flow rate of the 2.3L EB is, maybe 400~600 CFM?

http://bellintercoolers.com/ft-3085-faq.html

 

[TheLion]

Does the cpe require removing the bumper? The instructions say to, but I saw MAP install theirs without removing it. I do not know of cpe is just a hair bigger to not fit. I really do not want to remove the bumper lol ive done it before and dont want to risk it again.

Can you also explain the decrease in throttle response that someone saw after installing MAP?

All of them require removing the front bumper, but it's not hard to do, just takes a little time. You can find tons of you tube videos on it. If you can do brakes, change your oil etc. you can remove the front bumper.

Regarding throttle response, basically with too big of an inter cooler there's some small lag between the time you press on the gas peddle and the time the engine starts to make good power as it takes longer for the turbo to fill and pressurize the inter cooler + charge piping. But that lag with a properly sized inter cooler is so small most people wouldn't notice it and the benefits of how much power the engine can make far outweigh the small lag.

I am running a 20x14x3.5 inch (980 in^3) FMCI from Levels and my car seems plenty responsive to me, which is quite a bit bigger than the map stage 1 and is almost identical in size to the Map Race core. It may also take some time for the PCM to make adjustments to fueling / timing as well which may be perceived as lag. Most people on this forum who have upgraded their FMIC have no detectable issues with throttle response and the fact that the car makes good power all the time far outweigh them.

There are many reasons Ford uses crappy FMIC's in their EB engines, but most importantly is cost savings, product spacing (aka if the GT was only .1 seconds faster but cost 7k more not many people would buy a GT...) and future upgrade paths where they miraculously find another 10hp in the car ever few years to sell more cars etc. The usual that all of the auto manufacturers do.

 

[lizardrko]

All of them require removing the front bumper, but it's not hard to do, just takes a little time. You can find tons of you tube videos on it. If you can do brakes, change your oil etc. you can remove the front bumper.

Regarding throttle response, basically with too big of an inter cooler there's some small lag between the time you press on the gas peddle and the time the engine starts to make good power as it takes longer for the turbo to fill and pressurize the inter cooler + charge piping. But that lag with a properly sized inter cooler is so small most people wouldn't notice it and the benefits of how much power the engine can make far outweigh the small lag.

I am running a 20x14x3.5 inch (980 in^3) FMCI from Levels and my car seems plenty responsive to me, which is quite a bit bigger than the map stage 1 and is almost identical in size to the Map Race core. It may also take some time for the PCM to make adjustments to fueling / timing as well which may be perceived as lag. Most people on this forum who have upgraded their FMIC have no detectable issues with throttle response and the fact that the car makes good power all the time far outweigh them.

There are many reasons Ford uses crappy FMIC's in their EB engines, but most importantly is cost savings, product spacing (aka if the GT was only .1 seconds faster but cost 7k more not many people would buy a GT...) and future upgrade paths where they miraculously find another 10hp in the car ever few years to sell more cars etc. The usual that all of the auto manufacturers do.

That makes sense, I didnt know there was any adjsting the PCM had to do. MAP has this video: [ame] where they did not have to remove the bumper. Was just wondering if the cpe intercooler could be installed a similar way. Just want something to match the FP tune decently!

 

[TheLion]

That makes sense, I didnt know there was any adjsting the PCM had to do. MAP has this video: where they did not have to remove the bumper. Was just wondering if the cpe intercooler could be installed a similar way. Just want something to match the FP tune decently!

Some of them you do have to remove the bumper. A few you might be able to get away with not doing it, but honestly I think it's probably almost as much work. It's really not that hard to do.

The CP-e unit is deeper than the other stage 1 FMIC's, that's why you need to remove the front bumper if memory serves correctly. I could be wrong on that, maybe all the stage 1 (stock location) types you can get away with not removing the bumper, but I could of sworn you did for some of them.

Any of the stage 1 inter coolers will do a decent job, so if the MAP Stage 1 fits your needs go with that, it's a good quality unit no doubt. But you asked for the best of the stage 1's and the CP-e is the best of the stage 1 types and also is a bit cheaper if memory serves correctly. I think Glenn G is running the MAP Stage 1 and it has done very well for him so if installation is a concern go with the MAP Stage 1 FMIC.

 

[lizardrko]

Some of them you do have to remove the bumper. A few you might be able to get away with not doing it, but honestly I think it's probably almost as much work. It's really not that hard to do.

The CP-e unit is deeper than the other stage 1 FMIC's, that's why you need to remove the front bumper if memory serves correctly. I could be wrong on that, maybe all the stage 1 (stock location) types you can get away with not removing the bumper, but I could of sworn you did for some of them.

Any of the stage 1 inter coolers will do a decent job, so if the MAP Stage 1 fits your needs go with that, it's a good quality unit no doubt. But you asked for the best of the stage 1's and the CP-e is the best of the stage 1 types and also is a bit cheaper if memory serves correctly. I think Glenn G is running the MAP Stage 1 and it has done very well for him so if installation is a concern go with the MAP Stage 1 FMIC.

Thanks. Yeah I was asking which one is the best. I did not know which dimension was the deciding factor if we needed to remove the bumper or not.

 

[Rcmchicago]

Anyone bother changing the filter on the gt350 cai? My paper filter is nasty after drovibg cross country. Was thinking about throwing the KN e-1993 filter on there. Not sure if anyone else has done this.

 

[Rcmchicago]

The k&n def sounds better now that it's on, time will tell if I notice any other improvements, the other filter was barely screwed on, so much for that dealer install.

 

[firedaniel]

I used a airaid filter for a gt350. It's a dry filter looks and works great

 

[TheLion]

The k&n def sounds better now that it's on, time will tell if I notice any other improvements, the other filter was barely screwed on, so much for that dealer install.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-9601-g?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-ford-performance-parts&gclid=CMX09Yid8tQCFYxMDQodBosDDQ

I'd advise staying away from oiled cotton filters for daily driving (if your bent on running one, just buy both an swap it out for track days). They only provide 96% efficiency which translates into about 12x amount of dust contamination. The 3% difference results in quite a few more particles getting through and their dust capacity is about half. So you need to clean then 2x as often and once they clog, they clog very rapidly and your high flow filter turns into a massive restriction.

Dust contamination is directly proportional to piston ring wear. I'd suggest for daily driving use either the paper filters or use the Ford Performance or similar synthetic media dry filter. The dry filters have the same filtering capability as the paper filters but you can re-use them.

Also an outer wears pre-filter works really well over the dry filters to keep larger debris from piling up on them so your cleaning interval has a longer time span. The outer wears pre-filter is especially useful if your running a ram air duct like I am (Velossatek).

 

[lizardrko]

Quick physics lesson about pressure drop in intercoolers, all intercoolers have it but it's not a bad thing to a certain extent. Let me explain
a given mass of air at 200 degrees leaving the turbo occupies a hell of a lot more room than the same mass of air at ambient temperature., I'd be weary of an intercooler that didn't have at least a 1.5 to 2 psi drop across the core because that means it's not cooling the charge much. Second ly you do need to build some restriction into your core. The longer the air remains in the core, the more time it has to transfer heat.
To accurately mesure pressure drop, one needs to see the air pressure at the intercooler entrance work which our cars do not have a sensor. You also need the temperature for which our cars also have no sensor, lastly you need to measure the mass of air moving in for which we also have no sensor.. Ford however does some clever math to infer those readings. We do have sensors at the exit of the cooler for pressure and temp. Once you have this data you can calculate what the required drop should be for the temp drop.

Why did you choose MAP over CPE if they are both stage 1 and CPE is a little bigger? How do you like it so far?

 

[TheLion]

I think the CP-e unit wasn't done with development when he bought the MAP unit. Right around mid 2016 is when I got my EB and I remember the ATM inter coolers that were so well known at the time were just going out of business and Levels was just making his updated version of the street core (bigger core and cast aluminum end tanks).

MAP was just releasing their Stage 1 unit and CP-e was still developing or just starting to release their unit.

 

[lizardrko]

I think the CP-e unit wasn't done with development when he bought the MAP unit. Right around mid 2016 is when I got my EB and I remember the ATM inter coolers that were so well known at the time were just going out of business and Levels was just making his updated version of the street core (bigger core and cast aluminum end tanks).

MAP was just releasing their Stage 1 unit and CP-e was still developing or just starting to release their unit.

ohh ok that makes sense. The reason for me not wanting to remove the bumper is when I was putting in my new grille, a tiny bracket on the bumper broke when taking it out. The bumper went back on the car just fine but im afraid of doing it again if it might break even more. I obviously want a good intercooler I do not know if CPE is going to be significantly better than MAP. Like anything I will notice on the streets. I dont track or anything, just the occasional few pulls.

Sponsored