Ford marries Tesla? God help us all.

[Rinzler]

Actually, I think they care a great deal about what car enthusiasts in general think, because enthusiasts represent influence on other people to buy their products. One-on-one no-pressure advertising that doesn't cost Ford or whoever a dime. Clearly, today's EV straight line performance stats are aimed straight at enthusiasts. Otherwise the top 0-60 times for EVs wouldn't start with a 3 or a 2. A 5 or a 6, maybe.


Norm

If car manufacturers cared about what enthusiasts wanted, we'd have big block Mustangs, a new Town Car, a V8 GT, and non-SUV/Truck Fords. Alas....

Also, why do people use track performance as a measurement of whether or not a car is fun to drive? Most people, I would guestimate 97% of US drivers have NEVER been to an actual track. I would even say most car enthusiasts have never been to a circuit, let alone an actual drag strip. Track performance doesn't even factor into buying decisions of most folks. So if you want to live on that plane of existence, that's fine, just don't treat it like gospel for average buyers.

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[martinjlm]

If car manufacturers cared about what enthusiasts wanted, we'd have big block Mustangs, a new Town Car, a V8 GT, and non-SUV/Truck Fords. Alas....

Also, why do people use track performance as a measurement of whether or not a car is fun to drive? Most people, I would guestimate 97% of US drivers have NEVER been to an actual track. I would even say most car enthusiasts have never been to a circuit, let alone an actual drag strip. Track performance doesn't even factor into buying decisions of most folks. So if you want to live on that plane of existence, that's fine, just don't treat it like gospel for average buyers.

For me, a car’s ability to perform on a road course gives me a feel for how much headroom (untapped potential) the car has in exaggerated situations and how much fun I should expect it to be when I decide to get “playful” in my own driving. If a car can run good laps and be balanced and under control hitting the curves at Laguna Seca or Willow Springs, then I know I can be confident taking on-ramps and off-ramps at high speed with no drama. I know that when I find myself on backroad highways I can let it rip with confidence that I won’t wipe out on some non-descript curve in the middle of Podunkville, USA. Even though you can’t test the limits of the car on an open road, when you have a good feel for what the car can do near the limits, the more comfortable you can be handling “mundane” maneuvers far below the limits.

As for dragstrip performance, this gives me confidence that I can merge onto highways when I need to and lane changes are gonna be smooth and uneventful. I do get to the dragstrip a lot more than I get to road courses (because $$$ ) but I do enjoy road course driving more than dragstrip because you get to use more of the car’s capabilities.

I agree most US drivers, even enthusiasts, never get to a track and many probably couldn’t find one if they tried. But those of us that do are lucky and should enjoy it while we can.

 

[Interceptor]

If car manufacturers cared about what enthusiasts wanted, we'd have big block Mustangs, a new Town Car, a V8 GT, and non-SUV/Truck Fords. Alas....

Also, why do people use track performance as a measurement of whether or not a car is fun to drive? Most people, I would guestimate 97% of US drivers have NEVER been to an actual track. I would even say most car enthusiasts have never been to a circuit, let alone an actual drag strip. Track performance doesn't even factor into buying decisions of most folks. So if you want to live on that plane of existence, that's fine, just don't treat it like gospel for average buyers.

Agree.
The car guys use this foder for our BS sessions (me). The performance of the modern sedan far exceeds the performance needed to safely operate on the hiways. In reality a SUV is the most logical choice for transportation.

It all comes down to design, and what makes our eyes to the brain say I want. The performance attributes assure our selfish mind we are making the correct choice.

Rationalize thinking will not support paying 100k for the same vehicle type of 40k. No way will there be 60k difference in how you get from point A2B.

It all comes down to, "I like the way this vehicle looks, and what it says about me"

 

[CJJon]

Batteries are a dead end IMO. Just think of all the chemicals and rare materials that would be needed. What do you do with them when they stop working in a few years (relatively)

Fuel cells are the way to go. Hydrogen in particular. Makes the car lighter too!

 

[martinjlm]

Batteries are a dead end IMO. Just think of all the chemicals and rare materials that would be needed. What do you do with them when they stop working in a few years (relatively)

Fuel cells are the way to go. Hydrogen in particular. Makes the car lighter too!

GM is on the way to making Cadillac an all electric brand. To support this, they are restructuring some of their plants to build only electric vehicles. Three of those plants will run 100% on power drawn from energy stored in replaced electric vehicle batteries. The source of the energy will be solar and wind. The thing is, when batteries used in cars are no longer usable in cars, they still have 30-60% of their usable storage life left. Depleted car batteries are already being used to store energy in wind farms and solar farms all over the US and Canada. There are also companies springing up that specialize in remanufacturing battery packs. They remove spent battery cells and replace them with new battery cells and sell the remanufactured battery packs back into the automotive service industry.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Agree.
The car guys use this foder for our BS sessions (me). The performance of the modern sedan far exceeds the performance needed to safely operate on the hiways. In reality a SUV is the most logical choice for transportation.

I'm afraid that you and Rinzler just don't understand where some of us are coming from. Martinjlm has given an excellent description, and I'm not sure how much I can really add.

It's not just about the maximum measured performance numbers. How the car feels when you're running them, or when you're only running to a fraction of those performances, also matters.

It all comes down to design, and what makes our eyes to the brain say I want. The performance attributes assure our selfish mind we are making the correct choice.

That may be your take on it, but please don't assume that everybody else sees it the same way. I'd say I was closer to seeing things the other way around, except that "design", as I think you intend it, isn't of high enough priority to me to serve as assurance that I chose right. (hint - I've been able to go into every new car purchase I've ever made, being convinced that I'd still be happy about the way it drove long after it would be fully paid for over a normal-length loan) Been right so far.

It all comes down to, "I like the way this vehicle looks, and what it says about me"

Nope.

Try "I like the way this car drives, and I don't care what anybody else may try to read into it." Other people at autocross or HPDE generally understand. The car show crowd generally does not.

Like I said at the top, you and Rinzler aren't seeing where a more seriously performance-oriented enthusiast is coming from. I'm not joking in my sig about our WRX being the family sedan. It's a lot of fun to drive, even just driving around town running errands like we did today. I wouldn't have it any other way, unless you could strip out all of the technology stuff that we don't ever use.

FWIW, I'm really a corner-carver kind of enthusiast, and straight line stats aren't as important to me as the cornering and handling numbers or the subjective handling feel. Been that way for over 50 years.


Norm

 

[Interceptor]

Gotcha Norm, and I agree with your reasoning. But... you are in a small circle, as mention earlier by others.
Most people have not even come close to taking their car to its limitations, especially on purpose. You can probably do it without raising your heartbeat.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Gotcha Norm, and I agree with your reasoning. But... you are in a small circle, as mention earlier by others.
Most people have not even come close to taking their car to its limitations, especially on purpose.

Thanks.

I do think that the nuances of "performance driving" extend down to driving that's much slower and far less 'intense'. The bigger problem is recognizing small differences in overall "feel" made smaller by gentler driving, given that nobody ever mentions these things during your driver training and practice driving (never mind describe how you might recognize them). Obviously it's possible to find out on your own, if you're sufficiently disciplined. But it's likely to be a long process.

You certainly can apply road racing techniques to your much slower street driving. And it might even be good idea, within the limits set by things like lane width and following traffic. I hope I never see the day where I can't tell whether I followed a decent approximation of "the racing line" through a corner or sequence of corners even at a street legal(-ish) pace. Or visualized that line in the first place. Because it might mean that the time to hand over the keys (or have them hidden from me) might be approaching.

You can probably do it without raising your heartbeat.

At times, yes. Most commonly when I have found myself pretty much alone on a familiar road course because traffic had had a chance to spread out a bit. Then even one of the better laps can feel a lot closer to a brisk drive in the country than you probably imagine. Of course there is a bit more to it than that, like it being easier to feel comfortable at track levels of cornering and braking when they're smaller multiples of occasional (frequent?) street braking and cornering. Something like 1.2g being a smaller step up from 0.6g than it would be from 0.3g, that kind of thing.

On edit, your mention of "on purpose" makes a big difference. When you engage in "extreme driving" and it's not by your own active choice, it's going to be in response to something unexpected (emergency evasive action or a curve that suddenly got tighter than expected). In such situations your mind is going to be too busy dealing with how to avoid crashing to notice anything about the way the driving itself feels.

No surprise that once you do engage in track or autocross driving and get accustomed to using nearly all of your car's capability by direct intention that most of those emergency situations lose much of their "panic factor". It's more like "hey, this isn't much different from what I'm already familiar with at the track, and it's not going to feel any different", so you just do it and get on with your drive.


Norm

 

[ice445]

Actually, I think they care a great deal about what car enthusiasts in general think, because enthusiasts represent influence on other people to buy their products. One-on-one no-pressure advertising that doesn't cost Ford or whoever a dime. Clearly, today's EV straight line performance stats are aimed straight at enthusiasts. Otherwise the top 0-60 times for EVs wouldn't start with a 3 or a 2. A 5 or a 6, maybe.


Norm

As much as I'm on your side I think as time goes on, car enthusiasts are becoming less and less relevant. The metrics of car buying have been shifting for a while. People simply aren't buying sports cars or fun cars in sufficient numbers anymore. Even lauded ones, like the BRZ that are aimed at young people, are holding yearly totals in the hundreds of units which is pathetic. I'm honestly amazed Toyota is even making a new generation. Young people in general are driving less and less or buying older used cars, and the ones that do buy new tend to buy some crossover for starting their family. People like me that value things like a manual transmission and a big engine who's age starts with a 2 is basically a statistical anomaly in the car industry. Even people who are older with money respond more these days to technology and outright raw straight line performance than anything else, something that electric cars obviously excel at.

The driver of tomorrow doesn't care about doing a perfect heel toe downshift or redlining a big engine in a tunnel, they care about crazy fast rollercoaster like 0-60 times and cars that drive you to work for you so you can surf instagram and jerk off instead of dealing with traffic. The cars of tomorrow are catered to tech enthusiasts, not car enthusiasts. Which makes sense if you consider how many people view cars as just an annoying appliance and expense.

 

[shogun32]

Even lauded ones, like the BRZ that are aimed at young people, are holding yearly totals in the hundreds of units which is pathetic. I'm honestly amazed Toyota is even making a new generation.

Jap home-market. and other SE Asia (Vietnam etc)

 

[shogun32]

The cars of tomorrow are catered to tech enthusiasts, not car enthusiasts.

I wish they'd dispence with the 'tech' googahs and get me the flying cars they promised 20 years ago, damn it! Then we'd have fireballs falling from the sky to add to the morning commute excitement.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

[...] cars that drive you to work for you so you can surf instagram and jerk off [...]

More information on this? Asking for a friend ...

 

[Rinzler]

Lots of interesting conversation going on here. I just think there's a world where you don't have to be afraid of technology like some big bad wolf coming to steal your V8 in the night. As technology moves forward, I'm happy that Ford is making business plans that keep the Mustang around (see Mach-E) and ensure the Mustang brand stays relevant even as people's tastes change.

People used to prefer large 4 door, land yachts made of steel, with carburetors and lap belts. Times change, regulations change, and tastes change. Now we have Hennessey unveiling a 1800 HP Venom F5 that literally shoots flames and a Ford Mustang Mach-E full EV SUV which many are saying is better than the Model Y on the same day.

That's all to say; It's going to be fine, y'all.

 

[Stam616]

I think it’d be a great idea. To those making noises about poor quality and fun are electronics- I personally know 15 people who have at least one Tesla. Every single one of the most swear by their vehicles. I’ve been in them many times as well and never has there been an issue. A few are even on there 2nd and third Tesla’s. So yes it’s anecdotal, but to me that’s lot of people whose cars are doing just fine. Plus Tesla has always stood by them as well. I’d love to get a 3 someday soon as they are pretty cool and drive nicely.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Lots of interesting conversation going on here. I just think there's a world where you don't have to be afraid of technology like some big bad wolf coming to steal your V8 in the night. As technology moves forward, I'm happy that Ford is making business plans that keep the Mustang around (see Mach-E) and ensure the Mustang brand stays relevant even as people's tastes change.

The concern isn't about anybody's currently owned or near-future V8 cars. But it could be about the one a couple of car purchases out in the future, when you discover that it has lost the V8 option it used to have. Truth be told, I don't think that'd bother me as much as I'm sure it would (will?) other people on the various ponycar forums.

What technology has a very real potential for stealing is the driver's own involvement in the driving, the desire to get better as a driver, and the enjoyment that can come from that.

People used to prefer large 4 door, land yachts made of steel, with carburetors and lap belts.

Mostly, you're talking about my parents' generation and their parents' generation. That'd be people who lived through the Great Depression of the 1930s and the rationing of 1940's WWII, who were forced to have a different outlook on life than my generation (early boomer). Let alone GenX and later generations.

Lap belts are relative late-comers on your list - they weren't on any of the cars I rode in when I was in grade school, and they didn't become common until about the time I started driving.

Now we have Hennessey unveiling a 1800 HP Venom F5 that literally shoots flames and a Ford Mustang Mach-E full EV SUV which many are saying is better than the Model Y on the same day.

What can I say? The kind of person who could picture buying a Venom today would have probably been the person looking at an SJ Duesenberg 85 years or so ago.

I'll have to leave any Mach E vs Model Y commentary for those who at least like SUVs/CUVs. I can't picture myself driving either one, even if I was OK with owning an EV.


Norm

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