Ford marries Tesla? God help us all.

[Rinzler]

I'll have to leave any Mach E vs Model Y commentary for those who at least like SUVs/CUVs. I can't picture myself driving either one, even if I was OK with owning an EV.

You know, I find your comments all have this...short-sightedness to them. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, of course. Just yours seem to be rooted in the type of "what if" conspiracy I see in other places on the internet.

I've already stated that I think ICE vehicles are going to go away completely, V8 or otherwise. That doesn't mean that people who want to drive for sport all of a sudden are alienated. People race horses competitively can do that. People who want to row boats competitively, do that too. But the general public doesn't need to ride horses or row boats anymore, and life is OK. It's an acknowledgement that people's needs are changing, and ICE vehicles are not a part of those changing needs. Whether it takes 20 years or 50 years, it's going to happen.

Anyways, I can see that you're intent on standing your ground and not really listening to any argument, staying rooted in the "what ifs", so I'm going to leave the convo there.

Interestingly enough, the Mach-E, just won Edmonds aware for best ..........luxury EV. Apparently, Ford did a REALLY good job on the Mach-E, and we don't even have the GT yet. I presume it'll do quite well next year too.

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[Deleted member 35786]

Tesla's charging infrastructure is light years ahead of everyone. That is the only drawback with the Mach E is that its on a different charging network (electrify America) that is not as robust or refined as Tesla. We need a national mandate so everyone can use any network with their EV.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

Tesla's charging infrastructure is light years ahead of everyone. That is the only drawback with the Mach E is that its on a different charging network (electrify America) that is not as robust or refined as Tesla. We need a national mandate so everyone can use any network with their EV.

Yeah, the charging network is a major value point for Tesla, plus, with an adapter they can also use the DC fast charging available at EA charging stations (some EA stations on the west coast have started providing the Tesla connector without the need for an adapter).

 

[martinjlm]

Tesla's charging infrastructure is light years ahead of everyone. That is the only drawback with the Mach E is that its on a different charging network (electrify America) that is not as robust or refined as Tesla. We need a national mandate so everyone can use any network with their EV.

Depends on what you mean by "light years ahead of everyone". If you are talking number and placement of charging locations, true. If you are talking level of technology / charging power and speed, nope. The next wave of BEVs will come equipped with 400V and 800V charging technology. The DC Fast Chargers currently (no pun intended) being deployed by ChargeAmerica, EVGo, ChargePoint, and others will be capable of 400V and/or 800V charge support and charging at 350 kW. This is what will allow them to deliver recharge rates of around 100 miles in 10 minutes. Most Tesla Superchargers operate at 150 kW. The newer ones operate at 250 kW.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that Tesla is planning on increasing the power levels of their Supercharger system beyond 250 kW and it's not from lack of looking. Just to be clear, I am NOT a Tesla hater and in fact own a lot of Tesla stock and have an electric car (not Tesla) in my garage. I also happen to be a consultant and forecaster at a top automotive consulting and data firm. Following this stuff is what I do for a living.

 

[Norm Peterson]

You know, I find your comments all have this...short-sightedness to them. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, of course. Just yours seem to be rooted in the type of "what if" conspiracy I see in other places on the internet.

Keep in mind that the title of this topic - "Ford marries Tesla? God help us all" means that it's not just me feeling uneasy about the direction any Tesla-Ford coalition might take.

How do you want to see your future? The one in which you still have your choice, or the one in which somebody else's preferred solution has run your preference out of the market. Would you really, as a driving enthusiast, like spending some multiple of $10k on a vehicle that you would never buy out of full free choice?

That's not coming from some imagined "what-if" conspiracy mindset. It's coming straight out of real life experience that's already been happening. I won't go into that one any further here, but you ought to be able to figure out what I'm getting at. There's nothing like having been there to see a somewhat similar situation more clearly in the early stages.

Anyways, I can see that you're intent on standing your ground and not really listening to any argument, staying rooted in the "what ifs", so I'm going to leave the convo there.

Look, I know what I want and why I want it that way just as clearly as I know what I don't want and why I don't want it. So you're right that at this point I can't be easily convinced that an EV would ever be a good choice for me.

Never mind that neither an SUV nor a CUV would ever be a good fit for us, no matter how it might be powered.

As far as the Edmunds award goes - if you're shopping for a luxury SUV it's a pretty good pitch. Just not for everybody.


Norm

 

[MaskedRacerX]

Depends on what you mean by "light years ahead of everyone". If you are talking number and placement of charging locations, true.

I'd also add, I guess I'd call it, maybe "management"? I have a decent number of acquaintances with EVs (probably higher ratio than most, maybe because of being in the tech sector), anyway, the EA folks say they need better maintenance, etc. I'm sure will improve over time as it becomes more of a critical need (and positive marketing angle).

 

[jwt]

How do you want to see your future? The one in which you still have your choice, or the one in which somebody else's preferred solution has run your preference out of the market. Would you really, as a driving enthusiast, like spending some multiple of $10k on a vehicle that you would never buy out of full free choice?

Isn't that always the case? I pretty sure people were upset when carburetors were replaced with EFI, how often did you hear people complaining all the cars have computers now, how are you meant to work on it?

We live in a niche area of the market and most people don't care about a V8 or gasoline versus diesel or displacement versus turbos.

They want a car that works, offers value for money regardless of price point. For the majority, a car that doesn't need major servicing bar for brakes and tires is a godsend. If you could charge it in your garage and never again have to stop in a gas station most people would shout halleluiah. They offer decent torque from a standstill so feel peppy for your average commuter, housewife or non gear-head.

Ok, if you live in the mountains or in the snow belt or elsewhere you may look at alternatives, but you were probably not buying a sedan or coupe in any case.

But I don't worry that in some dystopian future I will have no choice to buy an ICE car for my fun car. Like motorbikes I think there will be enough demand to keep some manufacturers in the game. Look at Dodge and the engines they are producing. Super niche market and demand is super strong. If the big 3 start making more mundane cars as EV and keep their halo projects as ICE then we may see cars more tailored to our increasing demands. Lets face it the base S550 chassis is built to a price point that allows it to be a rental. Same with the Charger. Imagine a future iteration of the Mustang where designers were not building to a base price but instead to the enthusiast base price of say a GT or Bullitt level.

Imagine if this iteration of Mustang has been designed from the ground up starting at that threshold?

 

[Deleted member 35786]

Depends on what you mean by "light years ahead of everyone". If you are talking number and placement of charging locations, true. If you are talking level of technology / charging power and speed, nope. The next wave of BEVs will come equipped with 400V and 800V charging technology. The DC Fast Chargers currently (no pun intended) being deployed by ChargeAmerica, EVGo, ChargePoint, and others will be capable of 400V and/or 800V charge support and charging at 350 kW. This is what will allow them to deliver recharge rates of around 100 miles in 10 minutes. Most Tesla Superchargers operate at 150 kW. The newer ones operate at 250 kW.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that Tesla is planning on increasing the power levels of their Supercharger system beyond 250 kW and it's not from lack of looking. Just to be clear, I am NOT a Tesla hater and in fact own a lot of Tesla stock and have an electric car (not Tesla) in my garage. I also happen to be a consultant and forecaster at a top automotive consulting and data firm. Following this stuff is what I do for a living.

Agree. What I am referring to is that Tesla's charging structure is much more established than anyone else with more locations and fast charging to boot.

 

[Deleted member 35786]

Isn't that always the case? I pretty sure people were upset when carburetors were replaced with EFI, how often did you hear people complaining all the cars have computers now, how are you meant to work on it?

We live in a niche area of the market and most people don't care about a V8 or gasoline versus diesel or displacement versus turbos.

They want a car that works, offers value for money regardless of price point. For the majority, a car that doesn't need major servicing bar for brakes and tires is a godsend. If you could charge it in your garage and never again have to stop in a gas station most people would shout halleluiah. They offer decent torque from a standstill so feel peppy for your average commuter, housewife or non gear-head.

Ok, if you live in the mountains or in the snow belt or elsewhere you may look at alternatives, but you were probably not buying a sedan or coupe in any case.

But I don't worry that in some dystopian future I will have no choice to buy an ICE car for my fun car. Like motorbikes I think there will be enough demand to keep some manufacturers in the game. Look at Dodge and the engines they are producing. Super niche market and demand is super strong. If the big 3 start making more mundane cars as EV and keep their halo projects as ICE then we may see cars more tailored to our increasing demands. Lets face it the base S550 chassis is built to a price point that allows it to be a rental. Same with the Charger. Imagine a future iteration of the Mustang where designers were not building to a base price but instead to the enthusiast base price of say a GT or Bullitt level.

Imagine if this iteration of Mustang has been designed from the ground up starting at that threshold?

Keep in mind its all about sales numbers and simple economics. If people by the V8's they will continue to make them. Trends are changing and changing fast so manufactures have to adapt to whatever brings in the profit, be it the mainstream Honda Accord/CRV or the F150. Demand = Profit. Question is how long can the V8 survive?

 

[Norm Peterson]

... most people don't care . . .

They want a car that works, offers value for money regardless of price point. For the majority, a car that doesn't need major servicing bar for brakes and tires is a godsend.

Most enthusiasts want those same things. We're just a bit more particular about the performance side of the package.

If you could charge it in your garage and never again have to stop in a gas station most people would shout halleluiah.

I have to wonder if even that aspect is any more convenient than refueling with gasoline. Never mind that that only works for those with a garage, or who can park close enough to their recharging outlet. Sounds good in theory, but I doubt that 'most people' ever look very deeply into all the nitty-gritty details. Personally, I'm a lot less bothered by having to refuel in the rain than I would be by the idea of having to carry a plugged-in electric wire out to my car in the rain. And I've been known to "work hot" replacing a light switch in my house because other things on the same circuit couldn't be turned off at the time.

They offer decent torque from a standstill so feel peppy for your average commuter, housewife or non gear-head.

The Northeast has been digging itself out from a major snowstorm. Big torque from a standstill is the last thing anybody needed in their car around here the last couple of days.

That goes for today as well, given that yesterday's melting is today's ice. I'd like to think that most enthusiasts are smart enough to leave their big-power street/strip machine parked on a day like this if at all possible. But based on what I observed as the snow was coming down (yeah, I was out in it), the average SUV driver displays no such level of awareness.

Ok, if you live in the mountains or in the snow belt or elsewhere you may look at alternatives, but you were probably not buying a sedan or coupe in any case.

I live in the greater Philadelphia region, which is presumably within the snow belt. I won't buy a vehicle that isn't a sedan or a coupe.

If the big 3 start making more mundane cars as EV and keep their halo projects as ICE then we may see cars more tailored to our increasing demands. Lets face it the base S550 chassis is built to a price point that allows it to be a rental. Same with the Charger. Imagine a future iteration of the Mustang where designers were not building to a base price but instead to the enthusiast base price of say a GT or Bullitt level.

I'm afraid that would cost Ford development money for two different cars, one optimized for EV, the other for ICE. I doubt that a single platform could be optimized for both. Maybe that's what Ford is already hoping to pull off with the Mach E vs the ponycar Mustang.

Imagine if this iteration of Mustang has been designed from the ground up starting at that threshold?

I suspect that to a great extent it was. Just with the powertrains dialed back some for the lower-level trims. The GT uses the exact same platform as the EB (though in the PP trims there is some additional bolt-on bracing).

I'm looking at the whole car here, not just the engine/powertrain.


Norm

 

[martinjlm]

Most enthusiasts want those same things. We're just a bit more particular about the performance side of the package.



I have to wonder if even that aspect is any more convenient than refueling with gasoline. Never mind that that only works for those with a garage, or who can park close enough to their recharging outlet. Sounds good in theory, but I doubt that 'most people' ever look very deeply into all the nitty-gritty details. Personally, I'm a lot less bothered by having to refuel in the rain than I would be by the idea of having to carry a plugged-in electric wire out to my car in the rain. And I've been known to "work hot" replacing a light switch in my house because other things on the same circuit couldn't be turned off at the time.

This is precisely why I have been saying for years that ICE will not completely disappear. Even though dense metropolitan areas are a sweet spot for EV driving, solving the problem of how Chris on the 5th floor (and everybody else on floors 2-5) charges their vehicle will require keeping ICE around. There are other factors too, but until this is solved, EV is not the answer for everybody.

It can be the answer for many, though. We have a garage. We have a 220V circuit in that garage. My wife has been driving Chevrolet Volts since 2012. She is able to go months without even thinking about a gas station. The cool thing about EVs is you wake up every morning with a “full tank”. And to be honest, the car is actually fun to drive. Not in a Camaro / Mustang sorta way, but way more fun than a Malibu or Fusion.

....
I'm afraid that would cost Ford development money for two different cars, one optimized for EV, the other for ICE. I doubt that a single platform could be optimized for both. Maybe that's what Ford is already hoping to pull off with the Mach E vs the ponycar Mustang.
......
Norm

Most major automakers are facing this dilemna. Some, like BMW and maybe Mercedes, are working out the best compromise they can for what we call “multi-energy platforms”, where they can build ICE, PHEV, and EV on the same platform. Ford is doing that with F150. Most are going the direction that GM and VW are going. Developing skateboard platforms for EVs and traditional platforms for ICEs. They can/will economize by being selective about which segments will get EVs and which will not.

For GM, it’s pretty simple. Cadillac will get EVs across the board because luxury segments love EVs. Proof? Tesla outsells BMW and Mercedes where they compete in the same price ranges. But the other GM brands will keep and share traditional platforms for their ICE based vehicles and share the skateboards with Cadillac for their EVs. Ford is taking a similar approach with Mach E. What’s left to be seen is will Ford transition to only skateboards for EV. My bet is that the next Gen F150 EV will use a Rivian sourced skateboard. If they weren’t so deep into development on the first Gen F150 EV when they first linked up with Rivian they would have done so for that one, too.

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