First EB Driveshaft shop CF driveshaft!!!

[mbreinin]

Curious, how does a ds increase throttle response? Push on pedal, engine revs...never heard drivetrain being part of the equation...?

My experience w/ Al shafts is that they're good for a tenth or so depending on application. Noticeable reduction in NVH, however.

CF ds is too rich for this po' boy.

I would imagine a decrease in rotating mass would be the reason. I don't recall any increase in throttle response...but I had aluminum. Maybe with the CF since it is so light.

Mike

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[RubyRed15]

I would imagine a decrease in rotating mass would be the reason.

This.

 

[RubyRed15]

Should respond very well. The stock setup is almost 70lbs....:eyebulge:

Holy crap. No wonder it hangs onto revs like the throttle is stuck.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

This.

I've always known that, since I was a little guy, to simply be 'acceleration' - tied to the movement of the car. One wouldn't say lightweight brakes 'increased throttle response' would they?

Throttle response as I've always known it...

 

[RubyRed15]

I've always known that, since I was a little guy, to simply be 'acceleration' - tied to the movement of the car. One wouldn't say lightweight brakes 'increased throttle response' would they?

Throttle response as I've always known it...

Throttles respond to inputs in and out of gear. Reducing rotating mass improves throttle response, which is why a lightened flywheel creates a jerky throttle action. The driveshaft just happens to be on the other side of the clutch, so its effect will not be observed at all out of gear, and since the delta is smaller, it will be much less significant in gear.

 

[JJ@WMS]

A lighter once piece driveshaft has proven itself time and time again over the stock heavier two piece unit. There is a reason why the companies that make them keep making them and there is a reason why shops such as mine keep installing them, its because there is a performance gain that can be realized at the track and on the street.

As with any product, be it a one piece alum or cf driveshaft, CAI, exhaust etc... there will always be those that say they arent worth the money spent. My thought has always been that it could be the reason they think a certain part isnt worth the money spent is because the overall combination of parts they are using, or the tune (as is the case when comparing CAI's) isnt taking full advantage of the part they say is not worth the money.

We tested a ton of parts on our 2011 Mustang GT, the car that still holds the N/A bolt on stick record (10.88@125mph) and one thing I can tell you is that our car had the least amount of aftermarket parts on it compared to others trying to better our time. Even the auto cars that are now 3 years later faster run a hell of alot more parts then our car did at the time and thats because what we ran was tested and worked. No ported this or that, no special fuels, no manual rack, no race suspension, just flat out good parts, most of them stock that worked and worked well.

So if you dont get the results your looking for from a particular part maybe its time to question your combination before you go blaming the part itself. Just an idea.

Thanks,

JJ

 

[mbreinin]

A lighter once piece driveshaft has proven itself time and time again over the stock heavier two piece unit. There is a reason why the companies that make them keep making them and there is a reason why shops such as mine keep installing them, its because there is a performance gain that can be realized at the track and on the street.

As with any product, be it a one piece alum or cf driveshaft, CAI, exhaust etc... there will always be those that say they arent worth the money spent. My thought has always been that it could be the reason they think a certain part isnt worth the money spent is because the overall combination of parts they are using, or the tune (as is the case when comparing CAI's) isnt taking full advantage of the part they say is not worth the money.

There is a reason why people in medical trials respond to placebos as well. The aftermarket DS may work, but the cost to performance improvement ratio is poor, which was the point I was making. How much was that CF driveshaft? A grand? $1200? Is that a worthy investment for a tenth at best? The best argument for it is as part of an overall weight reduction plan. What did you get from the Airaid? 10-11 HP? Is that a good return on a $350 investment? My guess is the $289 downpipe you sell is a better bang for the buck than the DS and CAI combined. I would consider a DS, but only at close to the end of the bolt-on journey, where you are chasing that last tenth or two and willing to spend big money for a part that may get you there.

We tested a ton of parts on our 2011 Mustang GT, the car that still holds the N/A bolt on stick record (10.88@125mph) and one thing I can tell you is that our car had the least amount of aftermarket parts on it compared to others trying to better our time. Even the auto cars that are now 3 years later faster run a hell of alot more parts then our car did at the time and thats because what we ran was tested and worked. No ported this or that, no special fuels, no manual rack, no race suspension, just flat out good parts, most of them stock that worked and worked well.

So if you dont get the results your looking for from a particular part maybe its time to question your combination before you go blaming the part itself. Just an idea.

Thanks,

JJ

You really are proud of that Coyote record. Shaun got into the 10's with a stock airbox and none of those exotic mods you listed above. He may even have had less bolt-ons than you had. It is too bad his car was totaled, I am sure he would have continued to drop that ET. Oh, and a bolt on Boss just went 10.47 @ 133 from what I read over at SVT....

My car is tuned for the Airaid. Down the road it will probably be more beneficial as part of a larger package of mods.

 

[JJ@WMS]

There is a reason why people in medical trials respond to placebos as well. The aftermarket DS may work, but the cost to performance improvement ratio is poor, which was the point I was making. How much was that CF driveshaft? A grand? $1200? Is that a worthy investment for a tenth at best? The best argument for it is as part of an overall weight reduction plan. What did you get from the Airaid? 10-11 HP? Is that a good return on a $350 investment? My guess is the $289 downpipe you sell is a better bang for the buck than the DS and CAI combined. I would consider a DS, but only at close to the end of the bolt-on journey, where you are chasing that last tenth or two and willing to spend big money for a part that may get you there.

You really are proud of that Coyote record. Shaun got into the 10's with a stock airbox and none of those exotic mods you listed above. He may even have had less bolt-ons than you had. It is too bad his car was totaled, I am sure he would have continued to drop that ET. Oh, and a bolt on Boss just went 10.47 @ 133 from what I read over at SVT....

My car is tuned for the Airaid. Down the road it will probably be more beneficial as part of a larger package of mods.

Yes, very proud of the 10.88 and the other 10's the car ran with limited mods mainly because nobody has broken that record for over 3 years.

Our car weighed 3550 each and every time it went 10's and yes had alot less mods then shaun's car. We were on stock shocks/springs/struts all the way around, one piece alum driveshaft, boss intake and 3:90 gears. Longtubes and a CAI, slicks and skinnies. Now that list is pretty small if you ask me. No electric water pump, manual rack, tubular K member etc...

Havent heard of any Boss going .40's but if it happened thats great. I'd love to see a weight and list of mods.

We got the CF driveshaft for our car mainly because we wanted to test the best product available, knowing that the aluminum version would perform just as well and be more affordable to most. Just like the clutch we will be using, the best product available for our application. That way when we beat the snot out of our car like we did when we first got it I can say to anyone interested what parts hold up and what parts will be good investments. You have no idea how many cheaper clutches I have replaced with less then one year of track time on them.

Our Airaid results peak were right in line with what everyone else has shown but our torque held on much longer and our power kept up much longer as well. Do the search on our dyno results and you will see the difference that we felt on the street and the difference in SOTP feel was even better with our tune that took advantage of the Airaid. It pulls harder and harder up top then with the stock airbox and we were very happy with the results.

My point about saying a part isnt worth the money is simply this, just because a couple of people dont realize the potential of a product does not mean the product doesnt provide the performance thats advertised. No offense intended, its just they way it is sometimes.

JJ

 

[mbreinin]

Yes, very proud of the 10.88 and the other 10's the car ran with limited mods mainly because nobody has broken that record for over 3 years.

Our car weighed 3550 each and every time it went 10's and yes had alot less mods then shaun's car. We were on stock shocks/springs/struts all the way around, one piece alum driveshaft, boss intake and 3:90 gears. Longtubes and a CAI, slicks and skinnies. Now that list is pretty small if you ask me. No electric water pump, manual rack, tubular K member etc...

Havent heard of any Boss going .40's but if it happened thats great. I'd love to see a weight and list of mods.

Shaun had a stock airbox, a stock intake, 3.55 gears and stock headers.....he did not have a manual rack or a K-Member, he had a lightweight rad support and lightweight brakes and seats. He did have shocks and springs though. I don't know, while your list may be smaller, he did less to the engine than you did. No longtubes, Boss or CAI.

Here is the Boss:

[ame]

Our Airaid results peak were right in line with what everyone else has shown but our torque held on much longer and our power kept up much longer as well. Do the search on our dyno results and you will see the difference that we felt on the street and the difference in SOTP feel was even better with our tune that took advantage of the Airaid. It pulls harder and harder up top then with the stock airbox and we were very happy with the results.

My point about saying a part isnt worth the money is simply this, just because a couple of people dont realize the potential of a product does not mean the product doesnt provide the performance thats advertised. No offense intended, its just they way it is sometimes.

JJ

Well, what is advertised for the Airaid? 10 HP and 10 TQ? I saw your dyno results, I never disputed them.

 

[Driveshaft Shop]

This may help a few understand the concept.

Harmonics
You see the rubber bushings in a car are there to remove harmonics from the cabin, harmonics are caused by the engine firing in pulses and the firing turns the crank, but not smooth like an electric motor, it speeds up every time the spark plug ignites the fuel, this is why the engine has a harmonic damper on the front to kind of smooth this action. when you change from rubber to solid or poly mounts it will sometimes re-introduce the harmonic back in the cabin (the reason rubber is used is to make it quiet)i have been asking under scrutiny why a stock 2 piece will not do this as much as a single one and its simple. the center of the driveshaft that is supported but a by a real soft rubber hanger. its hiding this,shaft is still moving around but the rubber is soaking it up. put a solid rubber there and it would change this tremendously. its kind of masking but its still there, when you put a single shaft in there is nothing hiding the center moving around so its transferred to the ends (think of a tuning fork, hit one side and the other moves not because its out of balance but because a sound it being transmitted thru it) Hope this make sense

material and Harmonics
you are standing in front of (3) 48" long pieces of tube, all about 3.5" in diameter but one is steel, the next aluminum and the 3rd Carbon Fiber. You then pick up the steel on with your thumb and your index finger and strike the middle of the tube with a long screwdriver. The steel shaft will ring like a bell and continue until the harmonic being produced by the strike exhausts itself. You do the same with the Aluminum next, you will get a bit of ring but not as loud and will not hold for near as long. You then pick up the Carbon Fiber and strike it the same way as the others, it make a clack and stops almost immediately.

This affect is the same thing that happens when the motor if firing and pulsing the power from the explosions in each cylinder(this is what a Harminc damper trys to stop on the engine) This pulse along with the frequency coming out of the trans and the diff all collide in the hollow tube of a driveshaft, the material will either broadcast it or will not allot it to go any further. Think of a Tuning fork, hit one side and the other moves. Its not out of balance its being excited by the frequency being sent to it, the driveshaft does the same thing so balance is not to blame its harmonic, on the 2005+ mustang Ford had such a problem with this on the car they did a 2 piece driveshaft with (1) u-joint, a hanger bearing (2) CV's and a 9lb damper in the back shaft (talk about a
flywheel affect) this shaft weighs 46lbs and was used to stop the issue. other things like solid or poly mounts will make this even worse but thats a story for another day......


Carbon
Carbon is lighter but its not the real prominent thing it does. The carbon shaft would make the car more consistent with the 60ft times. and help lower them you see when the shaft starts to twist the each of the materials will wrap up. Steel/chromoly 5-7 degrees aluminum is about 20 degrees and Carbon 30 degrees, what the difference is the Carbon releases slowly and does not shock the tires, most see between .1 to .3 gain in the 60's.

Guibo/hanger issue with stock shaft
The stock shaft will have to start by putting the torque into the front Guibo and it
gives, then it moves down to the hanger that is very soft and will move up about .750" then back to the
rear guibo and compress that one, so by the time the torque goes thru the shaft its dampened allot to
the point of feeling soft or disconnected, by putting the single shaft in the car will be allot more responsive to
pedal/torque input. It will have a more athletic feel and be quicker due to the lack of the soft parts being
removed.

Dear DSS, I have some questions regarding your drive shafts.

1/ How do carbon fiber drive shafts cope with radiant heat from the exhaust system? Should a product such as this be used on the relevant section of the exhaust pipe?
the bonding of carbon will start to have issues at 300 degrees, if the exhaust is close wrapping it or shielding it will bring the number below this.



2/ How do cf shafts cope with stone chips and abrasions caused by gravel and other road debris?
our Carbon shafts actually have a outer layer of Fiberglass, this is done to ensure the surface of the carbon to be protected, its about .125 thick and
is very good at saving the shaft, if something were do dig thru it the shaft would be bad but also keep in mind if something were to do this to aluminum it would also ruin the shaft.


3/ Do cf drive shafts have a shelf life? That is, should they be replaced after a certain amount of time?
Heat is the only thing that will shorten the life, all shafts will have a fatigue cycle, Carbon is as high if not higher then Steel/Aluminum


4/ What is the advantage of a carbon fiber shaft over an aluminum shaft?
The biggest this is its ability to absorb harmonics and its torsion properties. you see all shafts will twist before a vehicle moves, steel about 7 degrees aluminum about 20 and carbon about 30. the difference is the others will come back like a spring and put reverse torque or time compounded stress on the shaft and the rest of the drivetrain. Carbon releases its energy over time and will help with either 60ft times in a drag car, coming out of a corner with a Drift,road race/rally or time attack car and it will also protect the drive train from harmful shock. The harmonic advantage is the fact that it will not amplify drivetrain drone or motor/trans harmonics like the other materials.

 

[mbreinin]

Carbon
Carbon is lighter but its not the real prominent thing it does. The carbon shaft would make the car more consistent with the 60ft times. and help lower them you see when the shaft starts to twist the each of the materials will wrap up. Steel/chromoly 5-7 degrees aluminum is about 20 degrees and Carbon 30 degrees, what the difference is the Carbon releases slowly and does not shock the tires, most see between .1 to .3 gain in the 60's.

You are basically saying that a CF drive shaft is worth 2 to 6 tenths in the 1/4 mile if you are saying they are worth 1 to 3 tenths in the 60 foot. I would like to see empirical evidence that supports this. Also, how much is a CF shaft for an EcoBoost?

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

Throttles respond to inputs in and out of gear. Reducing rotating mass improves throttle response, which is why a lightened flywheel creates a jerky throttle action. The driveshaft just happens to be on the other side of the clutch, so its effect will not be observed at all out of gear, and since the delta is smaller, it will be much less significant in gear.

Hmmm, so lightweight brakes and titanium lugnuts improve throttle response...and conversely fitting larger wheels and tires decreases throttle response? Does this also mean that simply increasing or decreasing the weight of the vehicle makes changes to throttle response? I don't think I'll ever be able to speak about it like that, cuz it doesn't make sense to me.

I see it as 'press pedal, engine responds'...thus 'throttle response'. How fast the rotating assembly (or car, whether in gear or not) accelerates is 'acceleration'.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throttle_response

Maybe I just don't get it...:shrug:

 

[YvonneOfTheYukon]

Hmmm, so lightweight brakes and titanium lugnuts improve throttle response...and conversely fitting larger wheels and tires decreases throttle response? Does this also mean that simply increasing or decreasing the weight of the vehicle makes changes to throttle response? I don't think I'll ever be able to speak about it like that, cuz it doesn't make sense to me.

I see it as 'press pedal, engine responds'...thus 'throttle response'. How fast the rotating assembly (or car, whether in gear or not) accelerates is 'acceleration'.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throttle_response

Maybe I just don't get it...:shrug:

Imagine swinging a baseball bat with a 10 lb weight on the end for a few swings and then removing the weight and taking a few more swings. During each swing you swing with the exact same amount of force. The swings with the weight take longer to accelerate the bat, and longer to slow the bat down. Once the weight is removed the bat accelerates much quicker and can be slowed down and stopped much quicker. The same thing happens when you remove some rotational weight from your drivetrain. Less throttle input is required to achieve the same rpm from before the weight loss therefor it is more sensitive/responsive.

If that makes any sense..

 

[RubyRed15]

Maybe I just don't get it...:shrug:

This.

 

[Thompyt]

Its called mass and the inertia required to start that mass in motion. Lighter wheels and brakes makes the rotational mass (tires rolling) get into motion faster. It also increases agility in turning as it takes less effort to change the gyroscopically moving mass into another direction. Think of motorcycles with Magnesium/Carbon fiber wheels in comparison to stock aluminum. Why do you think race bikes use lightweight aftermarket wheels. Its not for the looks. Less weight requires less energy to start that mass moving. That's why there are CF hoods/trunks/doors and panels. Also why some street racers remove back seats. Less weight. I have heard it is equivalent od 7-10lbs weight reduction = 1gained horse power

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