Finally broken in. Red line question

[Allentown]

Why do you 'have to' jump right onto that freeway? Can't you take a longer way around? Or at least head away from it and make a U-turn so you run up at least a few tenths of a mile at reduced speed. I can't remember when I didn't do one or the other of those, given that I'm only about a mile and a half from a major East-coast Interstate highway.


Norm

You know the real world is always more complex than the boiler plate BS people use in their simplified discussions. I have a bad habit of always pointing out the exceptions and nuiances and complications. It has the affect of confusing people, pissing them off or making them think i am crazy. That may be because REALITY is non-sensical, illogical, complicated and infuriating and i am usually trying to get away from theory and into reality.

I can totally see you going to the extra mile (pun intended) to make sure your car has a chance to warm up a bit more. For the average driver though...i don't see it.

Think about it Norm....how many times have you seen people NEARLY KILL THEMSELVES AND OTHERS trying to make a left turn when all they had to do was turn right, go down one stop light and turn left and spin around in a parking lot or make a u turn? It is like 99% of the population that will do the "left hand russian roulette" and like 1% of the population that will turn right and go up a bit to find a way to get turned around safer. Hell, even self driving cars will just sit there for 10 minutes and then dart out wrecklessly into traffic rather than turn right and go around.

If people won't do that to save their own life....do you really think the average person is going to go through the extra effort to save a bit of wear on their engine??

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[Zelek]

You know the real world is always more complex than the boiler plate BS people use in their simplified discussions. I have a bad habit of always pointing out the exceptions and nuiances and complications. It has the affect of confusing people, pissing them off or making them think i am crazy. That may be because REALITY is non-sensical, illogical, complicated and infuriating and i am usually trying to get away from theory and into reality.

I can totally see you going to the extra mile (pun intended) to make sure your car has a chance to warm up a bit more. For the average driver though...i don't see it.

Think about it Norm....how many times have you seen people NEARLY KILL THEMSELVES AND OTHERS trying to make a left turn when all they had to do was turn right, go down one stop light and turn left and spin around in a parking lot or make a u turn? It is like 99% of the population that will do the "left hand russian roulette" and like 1% of the population that will turn right and go up a bit to find a way to get turned around safer. Hell, even self driving cars will just sit there for 10 minutes and then dart out wrecklessly into traffic rather than turn right and go around.

If people won't do that to save their own life....do you really think the average person is going to go through the extra effort to save a bit of wear on their engine??

The average person also isn't trying to redline their Camry when leaving the driveway. It's a non issue for regular, boring drivers. Yes, the whole idling to warm up the engine is not needed, but getting to operating temperature is something different.

 

[ripto]

I can't tell you how many folks I've seen start up the car and IMMEDIATELY throw into R or D. Poor engines.

My roommate does this with his WRX no matter the temperature. It makes me uncomfortable, but he's probably at around 100K miles now and no major engine issues.

 

[BmacIL]

My roommate does this with his WRX no matter the temperature. It makes me uncomfortable, but he's probably at around 100K miles now and no major engine issues.

The OEMs design for this, so 150k design life is about what to expect, or a bit more. Doesn't mean letting it warm up and circulate oil just a bit won't prolong life.

 

[Allentown]

The average person also isn't trying to redline their Camry when leaving the driveway. It's a non issue for regular, boring drivers. Yes, the whole idling to warm up the engine is not needed, but getting to operating temperature is something different.

You have never seen how pissed off i get when i have to drive a CAMRY.....

If anything, at least a muscle car or sports car has enough power to be driven in traffic and maintain power at LOWER RPMs.

Extremely spirited driving in a mustang would require a pedal on the floor long enough to set up camp and go fishing in a Camry

 

[Dfeeds]

I guess this is one area where the "thinner" oils that OEMs now run to increase fuel economy may help significantly

Also why you might choose to run the thinner of two viscosity choices in the winter, especially if you intentionally run something slightly 'heavier' for track and autocross purposes.

Actually, 5w20 will take longer to warm up than 5w30 due to less friction. Not significantly so, considering the two are very close to each other when at operating temp. 5w20 is probably a hair thinner than 5w30 during a cold start, but not by much

If you want to really benefit with a cold start then you'd be better off running 0wXX. Honestly, that would probably be best overall considering 5w is still too viscous to properly lube an engine, at startup, on the warmest day.

 

[Allentown]

Actually, 5w20 will take longer to warm up than 5w30 due to less friction. Not significantly so, considering the two are very close to each other when at operating temp. 5w20 is probably a hair thinner than 5w30 during a cold start, but not by much

If you want to really benefit with a cold start then you'd be better off running 0wXX. Honestly, that would probably be best overall considering 5w is still too viscous to properly lube an engine, at startup, on the warmest day.

Probably not worth the trade off down here in GA though...

 

[RacinJason]

First cold start of the day I let it at least idle down. I'm curious as to the factory Ford tune why they let it high idle so long before dropping below 1000 RPM. It's definitely around 2 minutes before it settles, but this is only on cold days where the car has not run for at least 12 hours. I'm not too sure, because I've watched the gauges on the apps and can't find a sure rhyme or reason for the drop at that particular time. I know it runs rich cold on first start, cause I can smell it outside the car, but I would never drive the car straight away with it still in high idle mode. Just the old school me and maybe Ford knows that. High idle, don't drive yet...

 

[Lime1GT]

People on these forums always over analyze and worry too much. If your engines super cold like -30C start it give it a couple of minutes to idle down and then drive it normally. Modern engines have O2 sensors that will read all the sensors and magically adjust fuel/air ratios accordingly. {They're not like old carburetor cars that would over fuel on incorrect choke settings and dirty air filters. The chokes would have to stay on for long periods of time to correct for flat spots with throttle response. I'm sure there is more than one person that used to see cars sitting at a red light, -30 on an ice covered road with the rear wheels spinning slightly because the choke was still on.} Once the engine temp has stabilized 195F on the gauge drive it as hard as you want. Oil temp really shouldn't be a factor then as it's a multi-grade and will adjust to it's temperature. My car had 400 kilometers of test drives or sales person home runs on it when I bought it but I'm not going to loose any sleep over it. The car comes with a factory warranty.

 

[Norm Peterson]

First cold start of the day I let it at least idle down. I'm curious as to the factory Ford tune why they let it high idle so long before dropping below 1000 RPM. It's definitely around 2 minutes before it settles, but this is only on cold days where the car has not run for at least 12 hours. I'm not too sure, because I've watched the gauges on the apps and can't find a sure rhyme or reason for the drop at that particular time. I know it runs rich cold on first start, cause I can smell it outside the car, but I would never drive the car straight away with it still in high idle mode. Just the old school me and maybe Ford knows that. High idle, don't drive yet...

Fast idle on a cold start being extended is almost certainly done for emissions reasons.

Agreed on letting the car drop off the fast idle before driving.


Norm

 

[Strokerswild]

Break-in: get it to normal operating temp (oil and coolant) and have fun, varying speed, load, and engine braking.

Mine got bounced off the limiter the first time at about 30 miles. Zero issues. A briskly broken in engine is better than one that's been babied.

 

[BmacIL]

Fast idle on a cold start being extended is almost certainly done for emissions reasons.

Agreed on letting the car drop off the fast idle before driving.


Norm

Yes, it's warming the cats (which is why ignition timing is retarded for the first 10-20 seconds) but it's also correlated with coolant temp. It drops from the faster idle to 1000 rpm when CHT reaches 100 +/- 3 deg F like clockwork. It gets enough heat into the coolant and oil before dropping.

 

[Dusten]

First cold start of the day I let it at least idle down. I'm curious as to the factory Ford tune why they let it high idle so long before dropping below 1000 RPM. It's definitely around 2 minutes before it settles, but this is only on cold days where the car has not run for at least 12 hours. I'm not too sure, because I've watched the gauges on the apps and can't find a sure rhyme or reason for the drop at that particular time. I know it runs rich cold on first start, cause I can smell it outside the car, but I would never drive the car straight away with it still in high idle mode. Just the old school me and maybe Ford knows that. High idle, don't drive yet...

as a few people stated, its to light of the catalysts.

 

[AC53]

Hey Gents- I finally completely my 1000mi real in period. Can finally get into the higher rpms. I'm sure some people have bounced into the red line area. Everything OK after that? Yeah, I'm a bit paranoid about it. I'm sure shifting between 7000-7400 will be fine.

Alberto, I know this thread has gone well past your OP and fortunately, it has basically answered your question but unfortunately, not all in one post. ;-)

Long story short: You're fine to run it to redline whenever you want, with a few caveats.

• Best to let it warm up a little before going there, start the car and drive it. Optimally, you'd want it to be at full operating temperature before long heavy throttle, but anything other than dead-cold won't damage the engine, just expose it to accelerated wear, just like driving at 85mph continually generates more wear than at 65mph (all other things being equal). For what you have described, you are fine.
• Startup for any engine creates the greatest amount of wear (vs time) for an engine. There is very little one can do to diminish this. Starting it and running it right away is better than starting it and letting it idle which is better than starting it and running it hard right away. All of these have varying degrees. Starting your car at 32F with the OE oil and driving it right away is fine (see bottom of post).
• Keep in mind that there is a difference between what is referred to as the redline and the rev-limiter. Playing around with the redline is fine, with a warmed-up engine. Bouncing it off the rev-limiter doesn't really hurt your pistons, etc., but isn't something to do on a regular basis. There is absolutely no need for running to/at the limiter unless one is racing and needs to hold a gear for an extra second. I built a car that took two National Titles (Autoslalom and TimeAttack) and it didn't hit the rev-limiter more than 1-2 per year. Your car is quicker shifting before the limiter.

Long story long: As for the oil issue, there are as many "opinions" out there as there are folks on the internet, however, the following should cover what you need to know.

The OE oil is a synthetic-blend 5W-20, which means it is a multi-grade oil. Contrary to what has been mentioned, there is absolutely no need to change your oil weight unless you are going to be regularly starting it in -20 weather. 5W mineral oil is good to -25C (-13F). As Lime1GT says, most folks are over-analysing things here with what often appears to be very little actual knowledge on the subject but plenty of "thoughts/ideas".

Also, contrary to what was mentioned in an earlier post, 5W-20 and 5W-30 will flow virtually identical when cold. The 5W (in 5W-20 and 5W-30) refers to the oil's cold temperature performance and is a measurement of how it flows. The "W" stands for winter but really just means cold temperatures. Any quality 5W oil whether it is a straight-weight 5W or a 5W-20 or 5W-30 should flow exactly the same when cold. The first # before the W, in this case, 5W, has it's viscosity measured at 40C (104F). All have the viscosity characteristics of a 5 weight motor oil at 40C. Having said that, a 5W synthetic-blend flows better at -20 than 5W mineral oil (lower limit is -30C vs -25C) and a 5W full synthetic will flow best of all (lower limit is -35C = -31F). This is because the viscosity of synthetic oil is affected less by cold than mineral oil is.

The 20 and 30 in 5W-20 and 5W-30 identify how the oil flows (it's viscosity) at 100°C. Normal operating oil temp for most cars today, including the Mustang, is around 110°C-125°C, half the upper operating limit for the OE synthetic-blend 5W-20 which has a very good initial flow rate when cold. There are a few of reasons 100C (212F) is used. First, the soot and water byproducts of combustion get dealt with (to some degree) at and above 100C. Another is that back when the SAE standards were set engines typically ran cooler, but modern materials, oils, etc., plus our power, fuel economy and emissions goals all are easier to achieve with the hotter running engines.

Finally, while it may take a while to get oil completely circulated through an engine (perhaps 10-20 seconds for the 10L to all flow through at normal speed), your engine is being lubricated by the oil itself, not always directly or exactly by the circulation of the oil. Other than your cylinder walls, most other places that require oil either already have some there while they are stopped, or have an oil supply within a few milliseconds of startup. The oil in an engine doesn't all disappear and drain back to the sump when it is stopped. Some stays adhered to the metal (ready to lubricate), some stays in oil galleys, oil troughs, and oil lines, etc., (ready to deliver in milliseconds). That is why when you rebuild an engine you need to use a lube assembly oil and also turn the engine over (without fuel or ignition) sufficiently to prime the oil pump and lines - there isn't oil already throughout the system and coating most everything. This is a close to, not equivalent to, having as much oil in the system as you have with a used engine on startup. The only way to get better than that is to use a pre-oiling system like Accusump, but on a street car, it is a waste of time, money and energy.

As others have said, get in, start it up, count to 2 or 3 if you like, and drive. The 5W-20 is so thin when cold that you will have good flow as well as pressure before you are out of your driveway and if you need to get up to speed on an on-ramp it might mean the difference between getting 180,000 miles vs 181,000 out of the engine (or not). The ECU, injectors, etc., are so precise and fast today and the build materials including the plasma transferred wire arc coating on the cylinder walls are such that some of what was true even just 3-5 years ago has changed today. Have fun.

 

[frank s]

Then you have someone i DO actually respect:

Points: For those who won't watch
1) Idling doesn't warm your car fast enough...the longer your car stays cold the more ware... conclusion, long idles work against you as car runs colder longer.
2) When cold fuel injections will inject extra fuel in order to make sure there is enough vapor. Fuel is a solvent which then dilutes the oil on the cylinder wall, increasing wear. The longer your engine is cold..the more ware. Idling for long periods makes this worse.
3) The extra fuel can pass the pistons and mix with the oil, resulting in overall thinner oil with less film strength so then your oil is compromised, and oxidzation of oil is accelerated

[...]

My memory of the olden days includes advice that once started and driven, an engine's longevity can be enhanced by running it for a minumum length of time or distance. The diluting effect of cold-start extra fuel must be counteracted by driving at high enough oil temperatures for enough miles to "boil out" the excess fuel and return the oil to its non-diluted state.

Back in those days I would take that as a good reason to leave twenty or more minutes early for work, and drive a route with numerous speed changes, including some full-throttle episodes. Might not have been necessary, but did wonders for my mental state.

I seem to remember the magic numbers were twenty minutes and/or ten miles. I doubt it's important with today's metallurgy and lubricants, but I still do it whenever I can. Which is almost always.

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