Engine Immobilizer Lock - PATS?

Scootsmcgreggor

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Hey guys,

I've swapped a gen3 coyote drivetrain along with the fuse box, wiring and most modules (ECM, BCM, BCMB, GWM, and some others) but it won't start. Accessory power will turn on as usual, however the start/stop button green light flashes rapidly instead of staying solid green as usual. I've looked in the owner's manual as well as FSM for what this means but can't find a definitive answer. Does anyone know? The fuel pump also does not cycle when the accessory power is turned on so I suspect the engine immobilizer (if so equipped) is triggered and preventing it from starting. I've also jumpered the starter relay and it will crank over but will not catch and start. Doesn't even sound close, as if its getting no fuel. The fuel pump does power up when jumpering the starter relay, but only gets about 3 volts.

I have a number of DTC's, but none are PATS related and none that I can see that would obviously prevent the car from starting. So does anyone know about the existence of this engine immobilizer and can tell me more about it? If it is activated does it throw a DTC?

Does anyone know of any particular PID's I should investigate/monitor for further troubleshooting?

Thanks in advance.

 

LxMike

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Could it be the key fob somehow??
 

sk47

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Scootsmcgreggor

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Could it be the key fob somehow??
I’m wondering the same, but not sure if that would be it since i got one of the keys from the GT donor car and it unlocks the doors and allows me to turn full accessory power on.

(1) Code P1610 and Code P1612 + brain picking | 2015+ S550 Mustang Forum (GT, EcoBoost, GT350, GT500, Bullitt, Mach 1) - Mustang6G.com

Hello; the above link is one I started months ago. Very likely will not help you as it is for a different make of car. It was the immobilizer system that had failed. I did get codes that helped which you do not have.
Good luck
Thank you, will give it a read.
 

Cobra Jet

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Hey guys,

I've swapped a gen3 coyote drivetrain along with the fuse box, wiring and most modules (ECM, BCM, BCMB, GWM, and some others) but it won't start. Accessory power will turn on as usual, however the start/stop button green light flashes rapidly instead of staying solid green as usual. I've looked in the owner's manual as well as FSM for what this means but can't find a definitive answer. Does anyone know? The fuel pump also does not cycle when the accessory power is turned on so I suspect the engine immobilizer (if so equipped) is triggered and preventing it from starting. I've also jumpered the starter relay and it will crank over but will not catch and start. Doesn't even sound close, as if its getting no fuel. The fuel pump does power up when jumpering the starter relay, but only gets about 3 volts.

I have a number of DTC's, but none are PATS related and none that I can see that would obviously prevent the car from starting. So does anyone know about the existence of this engine immobilizer and can tell me more about it? If it is activated does it throw a DTC?

Does anyone know of any particular PID's I should investigate/monitor for further troubleshooting?

Thanks in advance.
I don’t know if this will help, but take a look… I posted this recently regarding non-starts:
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...cident-or-salvage-repair.165362/#post-3364334
 


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Scootsmcgreggor

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Whoa thank you. That would make sense of the fuel pump not working. Fingers crossed.
 

jacknifetoaswan

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So one thing I found while I was installing my MGW last weekend is that if the center console is removed from the car, and the wiring harnesses are not connected, the key will not be detected to start the vehicle. I take it that the fob sensor is in the cupholders, or near. Do you have all that reconnected?

JR
 
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Scootsmcgreggor

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Thanks. Yeah the center key antenna is in the cup holder. It’s hooked up and working as far as I can tell.

Bet that MGW is nice!
 
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Scootsmcgreggor

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Ok so still working on this. Actually my local dealer is as I reached the limits of what I could see/configure with Forscan and it clearly was not enough. IDS is needed, so dealer has the car now. The following has been done/reviewed and both the tech (good guy, likes the challenge) and I are scratching our heads.

Symptoms/observations:
-No PATS DTC's.
-RCM Fuel interrupt not active, engine is getting fuel now.
-Flashing green light on start button, indicates engine immobilizer activated.
-Cam/Crank signals not syncing properly. Looks like enine immobilizer is intercepting crank signal -and obscuring it from the rest of the computer to prevent starting.
-Pressing it clutch causes loss of communication with PCM (another immobilization strategy?)
-PATS key reprogramming not available via IDS or Forscan (very odd)

What's been done/reviewed:
-Verify fuel pressure (low pressure and high pressure both) when cranking engine over
-Verified crank position sensor and wiring circuit operation/integrity
-Flashed PCM with latest firmware and tune via IDS with VIN# (2020 GT)
-Verified BCM part # is correct for vehicle (2020 GT) VIN #
-Tried to reprogram BCM/CEI via IDS with full credentials and get "invalid" response from Ford website (as best I understand from talking with the tech).

My Thoughts Questions:
-Does anyone know anything about the Engine Immobilizer (not PATS)? Appears to be a separate system from PATS. Not having any DTC's and not having the ability to program new keys makes it difficult to trouble shoot. The workshop manual is also quite light as far as I can tell about the workings of this system.
-FCIM (radio/climate control panel with start button): is this part of the PATS or Engine Immobilizer systems? This part was kept from the 2016 car. Asbuilt updated to the 2020 car.
-IPC (Gauge Cluster): Is this part of the PATS or Engine Immobilizer systems? Original cluster from the 2020 GT was digital and sold before I bought the drivetrain. Bought an "analog" cluster from a 2020 GT MT and changed asbuilt data to turn off as much stuff as I could (adaptive cruise, Magneride, etc) to reduce the number of possible DTC's.
 

sk47

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Ok so still working on this. Actually my local dealer is as I reached the limits of what I could see/configure with Forscan and it clearly was not enough. IDS is needed, so dealer has the car now. The following has been done/reviewed and both the tech (good guy, likes the challenge) and I are scratching our heads.

Symptoms/observations:
-No PATS DTC's.
-RCM Fuel interrupt not active, engine is getting fuel now.
-Flashing green light on start button, indicates engine immobilizer activated.
-Cam/Crank signals not syncing properly. Looks like enine immobilizer is intercepting crank signal -and obscuring it from the rest of the computer to prevent starting.
-Pressing it clutch causes loss of communication with PCM (another immobilization strategy?)
-PATS key reprogramming not available via IDS or Forscan (very odd)

What's been done/reviewed:
-Verify fuel pressure (low pressure and high pressure both) when cranking engine over
-Verified crank position sensor and wiring circuit operation/integrity
-Flashed PCM with latest firmware and tune via IDS with VIN# (2020 GT)
-Verified BCM part # is correct for vehicle (2020 GT) VIN #
-Tried to reprogram BCM/CEI via IDS with full credentials and get "invalid" response from Ford website (as best I understand from talking with the tech).

My Thoughts Questions:
-Does anyone know anything about the Engine Immobilizer (not PATS)? Appears to be a separate system from PATS. Not having any DTC's and not having the ability to program new keys makes it difficult to trouble shoot. The workshop manual is also quite light as far as I can tell about the workings of this system.
-FCIM (radio/climate control panel with start button): is this part of the PATS or Engine Immobilizer systems? This part was kept from the 2016 car. Asbuilt updated to the 2020 car.
-IPC (Gauge Cluster): Is this part of the PATS or Engine Immobilizer systems? Original cluster from the 2020 GT was digital and sold before I bought the drivetrain. Bought an "analog" cluster from a 2020 GT MT and changed asbuilt data to turn off as much stuff as I could (adaptive cruise, Magneride, etc) to reduce the number of possible DTC's.
Hello; When I had an immobilizer problem last year I was lucky. I found a website with the detailed factory service manual online. I was able to work thru a lot of steps before going to a dealer.
My first thought was switching from an ecoboost 4 cylinder to the V8 likely means some mismatch in the components. I do not know if it is a practical thing to do but is there any chance of getting all of a wiring harness for the V8?
If not a total wiring harness, at least all components different for a V8. This is just a guess but maybe some component is expecting a signal from the 4 cylinder and getting one from an 8.

Sorry to be so vague.
 
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Scootsmcgreggor

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Thanks for the reply. I’ve used all wiring and all of the modules from the GT that I’m aware precipitate in the PATS anti theft system. And no codes related to anti theft. But still it behaves like this engine immobilizer system is activating.

Do you recall if your issue was with the PATS system or something else?
 

sk47

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Thanks for the reply. I’ve used all wiring and all of the modules from the GT that I’m aware precipitate in the PATS anti theft system. And no codes related to anti theft. But still it behaves like this engine immobilizer system is activating.

Do you recall if your issue was with the PATS system or something else?
Hello; I posted a link to my experience in post #3 of this thread. Lots of detail.

The problem did turn out to be the immobilizer system. The part in the steering column which reads the chip in a key. It has a circular antenna which surrounds where the key is inserted. There is a small box attached to the antenna with some chips. When I tried to start the car it would crank but not start. Had fuel pressure.
I did have codes which helped and some tell tale other things. For example the security system light on my dash will flash every 30 seconds when things are correct. When my problem happened that light was flashing every two or three seconds. There were other things such as the key fob would not do some of the normal functions such as open the trunk.
I was pretty sure I had figured out the problem after doing a lot of checking but ordered a simple tester tool. The tester tool was held at the key insertion place and the key turned to start. The tester tool did not flash.

Even tho I took the steering column apart and had the offending part in my hand I had to have the car towed to a dealer. I could have replaced the part myself but the keys and the computer had to be re-flashed by the dealer.
 
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Scootsmcgreggor

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Ah ok yes I did read that thread thank you.
 
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Scootsmcgreggor

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For anyone searching in the future the solution for me at least was to update the VIN’s in the ABS and RCM modules to match those from the PCM and BCM, then do a PCM module initialization. After this the Starter Block PID’s in the PCM reset to “no” and the PATSENABL PID reset from “disabled” to “enabled”. Engine fired right up afterwards.

I was pretty sure there would be a DTC when the PATS disabled the vehicle but that wasn’t the case. So definitely check the PATSENABL PID in the PCM if you suspect PATS is interfering with the start sequence, regardless of DTC’s.
 

 
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