Electric power cars are the future - change my mind

[K4fxd]

The big problem will be the electric infrastructure.

We already have rolling blackouts in parts of the country. What will happen if we added millions of cars being plugged in nightly?

Two things come to mind, 1 the price of electricity will go up, 2 the rolling blackouts will be more widespread.

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[Vlad Soare]

What I'm getting at is with that tech, we could get the cost way down without the luxury offerings Tesla has, the AI driving, and without all the other gadgets. I would think you could easily get a 800-900hp EV power train, in our Mustangs for 50-60k. I don't need the AI driving system, or their crazy suspension, or the fancy interior, or their stupid TV screen in the car. The mustang chasis would cost a fraction of the price compared to a Tesla.

I suspect that the bulk of that 140K comes precisely from the impressive powertrain (plus the massive battery and the extremely complex battery management system), not from the AI or the stupid TV screen. I doubt that a Tesla stripped of all its bells and whistles would be three times cheaper than it is now.

 

[Norm Peterson]

So with cars recently like the E-Cobra Jet, the Lucid, and Tesla Model S Plaid I truly believe that once technology catches up internal combustion drive trains will be inferior.

Example- Tesla Model S Plaid - sub 9 second 1/4 mile, 500 mile range, laps Laguna faster than virtually any mid engine sports cars, and has room for the family, and does over 200mph. It would destroy anything from Ford, Chevy or Dodge and virtually any European offerings in straight line speed, and around a track.

Don't flame me because I love my Mustangs, and my corvette i just don't see how we don't look at doing more to further the advancement in this technology. Im not a global warming freak but lets face it, we could really help ourselves from a standpoint of oil reliance.

What would be so cool is a 700hp electric mustang GT, with the aftermarket making different battery cells, or something like that to turn up the power. At some point I believe this is the future of performance. Will i miss that Coyote howl, or the sound from a cammed LS7...yes but when your get dusted by a silent car that'll pull so hard it hurts your face - thats a bright future.

There's always going to be somebody with a faster car than yours, and that's just as true today as it was in 1963 when I first started to drive. That today's 'faster' is increasingly likely to be an EV makes it no different from 1970 when 'faster' meant that the car in the other lane could have been an SS454 or a 440-powered GTX, with you in a 100% stock small-block car.

Change my mind

Try getting away from looking at performance only in terms of objective numbers and shift your focus toward doing the best you can with what you have at the moment. IOW, let go of any notion that a car's performance potential alone is the be-all, end-all answer and think more in terms of the driver and the car as a combined system. And maximize that, where the only direct comparisons you then make are the performances you can extract from your car against what another driver with a comparable car can extract from his. Though it is rather rewarding to put up a performance that challenges those whose cars are considered to have potentially greater performance envelopes than yours.

That probably means replacing the usual drag-race-oriented outlook for one that's closer to spec racing, or racing within a defined class. I won't try to kid you, this probably isn't going to come easily.


I think I've always looked at driving as being about equal parts car and driver, with performance driving being a subset of driving in general. And the more the driver is removed from the business of driving, the less rewarding it really becomes. Think about it - in the extreme you may see EVs that can fully optimize traction at all four tires in real time, and all the "driver" need do is step on a pedal. Or, going just a baby step further, just push a button and sit back. The computer will take everything from there. Might as well stay home and "drive" a mathematical simulation app. Simulated excitement if you "win" not guaranteed.


Norm

 

[XS]

I never understood the fast as possible mindset. I am NOT criticizing it, I just don't understand it. There's a reason one of the most sold sports car in history is also one of the slowest sports cars in history - the Miata/MX-5. It's about the packaged deal. To me, EVs are a one trick pony - fast as hell...... then?
A good analogy is this, when microwaves came out people were amazed by the speed at which they could cook food. It was revolutionary. There are old articles out there saying the microwave has spelled the end of the oven and stove. No longer will people need to do the tedious task of cooking for the family. To a certain extent, that is true, but every house still has an oven and a stove in it. People quickly got used to the microwave's one trick and soon found the experience of cooking and dining to be more than the sum of it's parts. While I am not claiming this 100%, but I find it an interesting coincidence that culinary tastes TOOK OFF like never before in history, in the same decade that Microwaves became universally obtainable . Ever since the 80s the food industry has exploded. We have more choice of culinary delights than ever before in history. Cooking shows took off, cooking classes and competitions took off. The microwave is a massive part of our pop culture now, but by no means the be all and end all of cooking.
Lastly, I haven't actually gone out and read the studies - but I have heard this from several sources, all EV-centric activists. That, unless recycle technology improves markedly beyond where it is now, there's 3 (human) generations of rare earth metals left to make batteries with. Taking raw material and recycling technology into account, there's 3 generations of materials left. Most proponents use this as a bolster, but sorry, to me that is a worryingly short amount of time. So, in order to be sustainable, we need a different kind of battery that doesn't use the usual suspects of rare earth elements - which I think will keep EV costs high because that is a tall R&D order to fill. I could be wrong on all that, just commenting on what I've heard from EV proponents.
Lastly, I have nothing against EVs - I have even been looking for an electric motorcycle because I think it would be fun to have. I'm just pointing out things I've seen people ignore or gloss over, that's all.

 

[WildHorse]

I truly believe that once technology catches up internal combustion drive trains will be inferior.

Sure in 20-30 years maybe. Maybe.

 

[GP2017GT]

I can't disagree that it would have disadvantages, such as draining batteries but with Tesla's fast charging capabilities you could in theory run 8 plus 1/4 mile passes and recharge in 45 minutes or less. I don't ever make more than 5 passes a night at the local grudge nights so its not a huge no to me.

The sound piece isn't a huge issue for me, as sound doesn't win races. I'd rather win than sound good (personally)

The manual transmission is really neat, but at the end of the day they aren't race winners. Virtually all top-tier performance offerings have some form of automatic. Even a majority of your professional race cars, and development teams use almost 100% automatic transmissions.

I honestly would say having a car that can win races 99.9% of the time vs virtually any true street car would be more than enjoyable.

I can't think of one car that can do a sub 9 second 1/4 mile. Lap Laguna in 1:30.4 seconds, get 512 miles on one take of fuel, and could haul my entire family.

I don't race my car so I don't really care. But I do love the low deep rumble of my Borla exhaust, and I love it when kids ask me to rev my engine. And I actually got 21 miles to the gallon today. That's all I need. Keep your electric car. I'll be long gone before I have to worry about no more oil.

 

[dpAtlanta]

I don't want a coal powered car.... that's just me.

 

[Vlad Soare]

A good analogy is this, when microwaves came out people were amazed by the speed at which they could cook food. It was revolutionary. There are old articles out there saying the microwave has spelled the end of the oven and stove. No longer will people need to do the tedious task of cooking for the family. To a certain extent, that is true, but every house still has an oven and a stove in it. People quickly got used to the microwave's one trick and soon found the experience of cooking and dining to be more than the sum of it's parts. While I am not claiming this 100%, but I find it an interesting coincidence that culinary tastes TOOK OFF like never before in history, in the same decade that Microwaves became universally obtainable . Ever since the 80s the food industry has exploded. We have more choice of culinary delights than ever before in history. Cooking shows took off, cooking classes and competitions took off. The microwave is a massive part of our pop culture now, but by no means the be all and end all of cooking.

Great analogy. However, there's a catch. No government has ever imposed microwave ovens upon us, or made it its top priority to outlaw traditional ovens and stoves. Traditional cooking was never under such a savage attack as cars are today.

 

[XS]

Great analogy. However, there's a catch. No government has ever imposed microwave ovens upon us, or made it its top priority to outlaw traditional ovens and stoves. Traditional cooking was never under such a savage attack as cars are today.

I hear ya. I think a lot of those threatening regulatory stances get redacted too. I mean, yes you're right it is headed in that direction. But a lot of these politicians are clueless and don't realize how real life works. Here in Colorado, when I was in college (a lifetime ago around 2004) they started getting all hyped up about hybrid technology. I remember the governor and others from the state saying "by 2020 Colorado will be all hybrids! By 2030 we will be totally emissions free!". Well, it still might happen sure, but it's a long long way further off than they hoped for. These days (and this is a CARB state) I see more Hellcats on the road than I do Prius's. But like I said, you're not wrong either, they could legislate us into poverty if they wanted to by saying, either drive EV or you can't drive at all.

 

[Hack]

So you don't believe in global warming or you just don't care?

If a person really believes that people/industry are impacting the Earth's climate in a way that is dangerous for our future, electric vs. gas in a high performance car is a small thing - virtually meaningless. If this is important to you, do BIG things. Don't have children. That's a really big way to reduce climate impact. Live in a really small apartment and walk to work. Never go on trips anywhere. Never fly in a plane. Don't eat meat or food that isn't locally grown.

Don't mess around with minor stuff like choosing between two options that both use an absolute F-ton of energy. Especially performance vehicles use a lot of energy.

Great analogy. However, there's a catch. No government has ever imposed microwave ovens upon us, or made it its top priority to outlaw traditional ovens and stoves. Traditional cooking was never under such a savage attack as cars are today.

Agreed. Gas vehicles represent freedom and people's ability to have good lifestyles. Heavy-handed legislation to get rid of gas vehicles is just the first step in a series of laws that will put everyone in the smallest possible boxes. If governments outlaw gas vehicles, eventually electrics will also be illegal as well, or the vehicles/electricity will be taxed so heavily no one will be able to afford to drive them. It has nothing to do with the environment.

I think electric vehicles may be good at some point. Batteries have to get a LOT better. Right now batteries suck big time. Gas is a lot better method to carry energy around. I don't know if electric vehicles will get better. Someone has to invent a battery that will not destroy the environment, charge in less than 5 minutes (2 minutes would be truly competitive with gas), not weigh so much, last a long time. Will they succeed? Is it even possible? I don't know. I definitely wouldn't bet my own money that electric cars will someday be better than gasoline. It's more likely that cars go out with a whimper as governments take away our choices.

 

[K4fxd]

Elections matter.

 

[camelfarmer]

If a person really believes that people/industry are impacting the Earth's climate in a way that is dangerous for our future, electric vs. gas in a high performance car is a small thing - virtually meaningless. If this is important to you, do BIG things. Don't have children. That's a really big way to reduce climate impact. Live in a really small apartment and walk to work. Never go on trips anywhere. Never fly in a plane. Don't eat meat or food that isn't locally grown.

Don't mess around with minor stuff like choosing between two options that both use an absolute F-ton of energy. Especially performance vehicles use a lot of energy.



Agreed. Gas vehicles represent freedom and people's ability to have good lifestyles. Heavy-handed legislation to get rid of gas vehicles is just the first step in a series of laws that will put everyone in the smallest possible boxes. If governments outlaw gas vehicles, eventually electrics will also be illegal as well, or the vehicles/electricity will be taxed so heavily no one will be able to afford to drive them. It has nothing to do with the environment.

I think electric vehicles may be good at some point. Batteries have to get a LOT better. Right now batteries suck big time. Gas is a lot better method to carry energy around. I don't know if electric vehicles will get better. Someone has to invent a battery that will not destroy the environment, charge in less than 5 minutes (2 minutes would be truly competitive with gas), not weigh so much, last a long time. Will they succeed? Is it even possible? I don't know. I definitely wouldn't bet my own money that electric cars will someday be better than gasoline. It's more likely that cars go out with a whimper as governments take away our choices.

I dont have kids.

Its too late and it's all fucked anyway.

But I don't like the stinky little fuckers anyway.

I was mearly following up on something op said.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I can't disagree that it would have disadvantages, such as draining batteries but with Tesla's fast charging capabilities you could in theory run 8 plus 1/4 mile passes and recharge in 45 minutes or less. I don't ever make more than 5 passes a night at the local grudge nights so its not a huge no to me.

8 x 1/4 = less than one lap at most road courses. Most HPDE sessions I get at least a dozen laps in. Just sayin' . . .

The sound piece isn't a huge issue for me, as sound doesn't win races. I'd rather win than sound good (personally)

Sound isn't a big thing for me, either. Though it does provide audible evidence of speed (albeit somewhat indirectly) and does serve as guidance for shifting.

The manual transmission is really neat, but at the end of the day they aren't race winners. Virtually all top-tier performance offerings have some form of automatic. Even a majority of your professional race cars, and development teams use almost 100% automatic transmissions.

If you're not a professional driver (most of us aren't) or at least competing for contingencies with a serious change of winning them (still accounts for most of us), you're only racing for the bragging rights.

Since I'm neither a pro nor am I chasing a tire or other contingency, I'd personally rather have my driving count for more (even with less to brag about) than have better-looking results to brag about where my part in making them happen was that much less.

And that's all before stopping to think how mindless driving a 1-speed car would be for anybody who's been driving stick for as long as I have. Slap the car into 'D' and banish part of your mind off to forever-neutral-land, no thanks.

I honestly would say having a car that can win races 99.9% of the time vs virtually any true street car would be more than enjoyable.

I have a feeling that after a while of knowing exactly what the outcome was going to be before you even touched the throttle, it would just get old.

I can't think of one car that can do a sub 9 second 1/4 mile. Lap Laguna in 1:30.4 seconds

All electronically sanitized for your protection. Might as well just drive a sim.

get 512 miles on one take of fuel, and could haul my entire family.

Not big factors for me any more. But if they were I'd rather have one car focused on performance at the expense of utility and another that gives up some performance for daily live-ability.


Norm

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