Electric Mustangs. Cheaper? I just don't see it.

[Briebee72]

Let me say first this is opinion and some ranting , nothing more. Just from what I have read and seen and my own way of putting it together.

So the electric car market is in high marketing gear. And many seen to be drinking the kool aid. I see lots of forums and posts and online write ups claiming the amazing cost savings of electric. I just dont see it. The cars themselves are more expensive, even with the potential 7500 tax credit that comes with more asterisk and footnotes and ifs and buts. The GT electric cost more than the GT ICE and that's a base electric vs a fully loaded ICE GT.

The batteries, I keep seeing people say well the batteries are cheaper and will get cheaper when compared to a ICE. Um... a basic used tesla model 3 battery pack is 10k...used. People are claiming the batteries will get 1 million miles.. ok then why are there used and spare batteries for sale now? apparently people already need them. Now I understand these are older cars so... that is part of the battery replacement. But cost, when has anything tech wise gotten cheaper as it improved? People saying well longer better batteries will be cheaper??? remember when phones were 29.95? Now you need a credit app to get one. Phone batteries same thing. Well will improve over time. HA, if anything they dont last as long now.

Electric cost compared to gas. Everyone says well electric is cheaper and will get cheaper. Again has anyones electric bill gone down over the years? Mine sure hasn't. I use to pay about 39 bucks a month for electric when I first went out on my own now in winter I have electric bills into the hundreds. With gas you just go and stop and fill and go. With electric i just read where holiday travelers were waiting hours to charge their cars...that sounds fun.

Environmental impact. Ha honestly they both suck and and are garbage for the environment just in different ways. But electric car owners want to pretend they aren't polluting anything. That electricity gets made somehow and typically is gas or coal. You might not be causing it on one end but you are on the other. Then they say well wind energy and solar are coming and are cheaper... um no.. just one wind turbine costs about 4 million...one. so a whole field of the things runs into the billions and you think that equates to cheaper electricity for you? Na. plus can you imagine people get bent out of shape over a cell tower. what kind of bitching do you think there will be when there is thousands of giant windmills everywhere? and places like LA or New York city. Where in the world would they build a solar farm anyway or put windmills.

The elements to make the batteries. Are already some of the most expensive and limited resource materials. Where we gonna keep getting the elements to make the batteries? and considering that they are already in short supply in the beginning you think they will get cheaper as they become even harder to find?

New tech. Back to the million mile batteries. How do they know? Its new tech, and people can guess but no one knows. Lets use cell phones again. Samsung said our new fold phone can withstand a million folds... we tested it. Sent out phones to reviewers and... yeah all the screens broke. Gorilla glass screens. Oh these screens are unbreakable and super durable. Just about everyone I know has a cracked screen. My old regular phones without gorilla glass, never broke a screen. My point they can claim a million miles but just like base price msrp on cars it ain't happening. They put some many stipulations and asterixis and disclaimers to basically say yeah we are full of crap. Yet people eat it up and believe it.

You ever known anyone to get a car at base msrp? I seriously tried once. I went to a dealer and said I want the car that is the starting price the one they advertise. They couldn't find one or order one. everything had options. I seriously think they build 2 of the base just so they can advertise that price legally and then good luck finding one. even if you can order one by the time they get done adding fees you are better off just taking the one on the lot with options. My point here. Seems lots of people are taking the manufacturer at their word and well we all know how that goes.

Longevity . these cars haven't been around long enough for anyone to know how they are gonna hold up. I have seen and read plenty about tesla build quality not being the best. These are gonna be very expensive disposable cars at best. Once the batteries go and you are looking at 10k for a battery about the same time most people trade cars anyway. what are you gonna do drop 10 plus k on a battery or just get a new car. what do you do with your cell phone? And what kind of resale is a car with a bad battery gonna have? you think dealer will give top dollar for a car that needs a 10k battery?
do you see any of these lasting to become classics for sale at barrett jackson?

I think people are gonna be in for a awakening about these cars in about 7 years and with in 10 we are gonna start having piles of the things lying about because they were cast off because of batteries.

Sponsored

 

[NoVaGT]

.....the potential 7500 tax credit that comes with more asterisk and footnotes and ifs and buts.......

I thought those tax credits had been stopped.

 

[Briebee72]

I thought those tax credits had been stopped.

Well there is that as well. only so many get those credits. Then it is done.

 

[Bikeman315]

I thought those tax credits had been stopped.

Well there is that as well. only so many get those credits. Then it is done.

The credits are based on how many full electric vehicles a manufacturer has sold. Ford has a long way to go before their credits run out. Also remember that it is a tax credit that comes off your return. It is not a purchase discount.

 

[NoVaGT]

...Also remember that it is a tax credit that comes off your return. It is not a purchase discount.

It doesn't matter. It's just coming out of all of our pockets one way or another.

And that's complete bullshit.

 

[Strokerswild]

The only way I see full-electrics becoming mainstream is when the cost to purchase is in line with ICE vehicles.

Electrics are just too damn expensive right now. The average buyer is never going to choose one over an equivalent ICE because they likely won't be able to afford it. Hell, the average new car is out of the reach of many right now as it is.

 

[Bikeman315]

The only way I see full-electrics becoming mainstream is when the cost to purchase is in line with ICE vehicles.

Electrics are just too damn expensive right now. The average buyer is never going to choose one over an equivalent ICE because they likely won't be able to afford it. Hell, the average new car is out of the reach of many right now as it is.

Yes, of course they are. BEV's, with the exception being Tesla, are in their infancy. The Mach-E is the first BEV from a major manufacturer. No one is expecting them to become mainstream for years, probably decades. And in that time, the cost of the vehicles will come down, as will the cost of the batteries. I'm not sure why everyone thinks this is happening tomorrow. Oh, I know why.....Ford just introduced their first BEV.

 

[Bikeman315]

he batteries, I keep seeing people say well the batteries are cheaper and will get cheaper when compared to a ICE. Um... a basic used tesla model 3 battery pack is 10k...used. People are claiming the batteries will get 1 million miles.. ok then why are there used and spare batteries for sale now? apparently people already need them. Now I understand these are older cars so... that is part of the battery replacement. But cost, when has anything tech wise gotten cheaper as it improved? People saying well longer better batteries will be cheaper??? remember when phones were 29.95? Now you need a credit app to get one. Phone batteries same thing. Well will improve over time. HA, if anything they dont last as long now.

Here are the warranties. At this point all model 3's are most likely under warranty.

New Vehicle Limited Warranty
Your vehicle is protected by a New Vehicle Limited Warranty for 4 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first. The Battery and Drive Unit in your vehicle are covered for a period of:

• Model S and Model X – 8 years (with the exception of the original 60 kWh battery manufactured before 2015, which is covered for a period of 8 years or 125,000 miles, whichever comes first).
• Model 3 - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
• Model 3 with Long-Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.

New tech. Back to the million mile batteries. How do they know? Its new tech, and people can guess but no one knows.

Yes, they do. It's something called testing. All battery companies do it.

You make some good points but the reality is that the ICE is going the way of the Dodo bird. The only other technology available right now is electric. The technology is advancing on a daily basis. Many of your legitimate concerns will be addressed and resolved over the next 5-10 years.

do you see any of these lasting to become classics for sale at barrett jackson?

Who know, maybe. A pristine Model S. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Hack]

The only way I see full-electrics becoming mainstream is when the cost to purchase is in line with ICE vehicles.

Electrics are just too damn expensive right now. The average buyer is never going to choose one over an equivalent ICE because they likely won't be able to afford it. Hell, the average new car is out of the reach of many right now as it is.

Cost to purchase must be in line and life must be equal or better and time to fill must be equal or better and range must be equal or better.

If the electrics aren't as good as gas engine vehicles, the only people who will buy them are the fanatics and crusaders. "Normal" people are buying big gas engine pickups and SUVs.

 

[Strokerswild]

Yes, of course they are. BEV's, with the exception being Tesla, are in their infancy. The Mach-E is the first BEV from a major manufacturer. No one is expecting them to become mainstream for years, probably decades. And in that time, the cost of the vehicles will come down, as will the cost of the batteries. I'm not sure why everyone thinks this is happening tomorrow. Oh, I know why.....Ford just introduced their first BEV.

But wait, if they really wanted to make a dent in the market, why not price them accordingly? Shocking question, pun intended.

ICE powered vehicles are arguably more complex (engines, transmissions), which is usually more expensive. I'm an engineer and design factory automation, and simple is cheap in my world. Bring the price of the BEV down and I'd bet they'd move far more of them. I get that they're in their infancy, but them becoming mainstream is a long way out, IMO.

 

[zackmd1]

ok then why are there used and spare batteries for sale now?

Teslas, like every other vehicle do crash and get totaled.... There are spare batteries on the market because of that.

The GT electric cost more than the GT ICE and that's a base electric vs a fully loaded ICE GT.

Be sure to consider your monthly cost of gas in your comparison of EV and ICE pricing. EVs are more expensive upfront but are cheaper when it comes to lifetime ownership cost. No oil changes, no gas, no transmissions to fail, etc...

With electric i just read where holiday travelers were waiting hours to charge their cars...that sounds fun.

Not enough fast chargers..... It's easy to fill up when there is a gas station on every corner.... Chargers will catch up but it is the early days of EVs.

Again has anyones electric bill gone down over the years?

Legitimate concern and will be interesting to see how it plays out. Still will take quite a while for electricity to match the cost of gas. My monthly cost for gas was $250 with the mustang while my Tesla takes a mere $28 a month to "fuel".

Ha honestly they both suck and and are garbage for the environment just in different ways. But electric car owners want to pretend they aren't polluting anything. That electricity gets made somehow and typically is gas or coal.

An EV charging solely on coal is still cleaner than an ICE vehicle. It's due to efficiency. ICE vehicles are at best, 25% efficient at converting energy from gas to useable mechanical energy. EVs are upwards of 95% efficient.

The grid will get cleaner... Solar and wind will be a small part but nuclear will be the key that no one is talking about (fission and fusion).

The elements to make the batteries. Are already some of the most expensive and limited resource materials. Where we gonna keep getting the elements to make the batteries? and considering that they are already in short supply in the beginning you think they will get cheaper as they become even harder to find?

Rare Earth elements are rare compared to elements like iron but are far from being a supply issue currently. Also keep in mind that this is the first generation of EVs... Technology advances. There are already designs and concepts for batteries that do not use rare Earth elements. Plus these elements can be recycled and reclaimed.

You ever known anyone to get a car at base msrp? I seriously tried once. I went to a dealer and said I want the car that is the starting price the one they advertise. They couldn't find one or order one. everything had options. I seriously think they build 2 of the base just so they can advertise that price legally and then good luck finding one.

This is an issue with any vehicle, not just EVs... But it's more of an issue because of dealers. My Tesla is the base model 35k model that I ordered from the store and was driving it a week later....

Longevity . these cars haven't been around long enough for anyone to know how they are gonna hold up. I have seen and read plenty about tesla build quality not being the best. These are gonna be very expensive disposable cars at best. Once the batteries go and you are looking at 10k for a battery about the same time most people trade cars anyway.

There are Teslas that are 8+ years old and have over 300k miles on them. They still have 90%+ of their battery capacity and driving just fine. An EV has FAR less moving parts than an ICE vehicle. They will last longer. The battery is key and so far, it doesn't seem to be an issue with these Teslas.

A battery doesn't simply fail.... It slowly looses capacity over time.

 

[Nagare]

Just some quick comments on specific parts of the post, others are pretty true.

remember when phones were 29.95? Now you need a credit app to get one. Phone batteries same thing. Well will improve over time. HA, if anything they dont last as long now.

Phones also do more than they ever have and have much more processing capability which eats up the battery. Phones sizes have stayed the same or gotten smaller for the most part, despite increasing battery capacities (again, usually...some manufacturers screw people over a bit) which is a sign of improving tech. For the price part, that $29.95 was typically your subsidized portion of the cost in return for higher monthly fees - now carriers have changed that and passed the cost back to you anyway.

Again has anyones electric bill gone down over the years? Mine sure hasn't. I use to pay about 39 bucks a month for electric when I first went out on my own now in winter I have electric bills into the hundreds.

What did you have running then compared to now? Everything leeches power and I'm sure you have a lot more connected and running all the time compared to back then. Compare the actual electric rates, not your monthly bill. Again, part of it will come down to your company screwing people over, but not necessarily the actual electric rate.

Gorilla glass screens. Oh these screens are unbreakable and super durable.

Not about breaking originally, more focused on scratch resistance. The overall construction of the phones have moved to being glass and metal with non-removable batteries which means the phone has to absorb the hit instead of breaking apart and dissolving the energy that way.

 

[Spork3245]

Who’s saying an E Mustang will be cheaper? That’s generally a Tesla-fan argument for any pricing criticisms. I haven’t heard much of it in the way from non-tech company carmaker fans. I just want 100% torque as soon as I press the pedal

 

[Strokerswild]

A co-worker's DD is a 2005 Prius that he bought new, and has well over 200K on the odo. The only thing that he's had to replace is the battery that starts the car. The battery pack is fine.

It's 2019. I see no reason a BEV intended for mass market consumption can't be made far cheaper than the Mach E. @Hack nailed it in Post #9.

 

[zackmd1]

I get that they're in their infancy, but them becoming mainstream is a long way out, IMO.

The technology is in its infancy. Whenever technology is in its infancy, it's more expensive regardless if it's more simple. Over time and as manufacturing goes up, the cost will go down which I'm sure you know. We are probably still 2-5 years out from seeing EVs in the mid $20ks.

Sponsored