E85 FBO retune

[ZXMustang]

If a stock flex fuel 5.0 F-150 can cold start just fine on E85 (they do, I have done it multiple times this week/month and I am not alone), a 5.0L Mustang can do it too. I am currently running full E85 in a stock 5.0L F-150 that has OEM flex fuel and it's been in the low 30s every morning this past week. No cold start issues. Zero. It simply starts up, and I drive it.

My experience is the same with my Mustang running E85 in even colder temps. If setup correctly, it just works.

Find a new tuner. These aren't race cars and they can be dialed in to cold start on E85 with minimal effort. Anyone telling you otherwise is wrong.

I assume you’ve tuned many mustangs then in all climates, elevations and e blends with all sorts of mod lists yes?

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[mejohn50]

I assume you’ve tuned many mustangs then in all climates, elevations and e blends with all sorts of mod lists yes?

Assume what you'd like.

 

[Steve8989]

Didn't you have borla atak catback and long tubes? Do you still have that set up?

I have 2018 ported manifold IRMC lock out and tuned out, e85, Borla atak catless full exhaust with o2 spacers, lethal kooks LTH, Pmas Cai

 

[Steve8989]

The correct answer here is you shouldnt be running E85 in any climate that gets below 40s-50s. E85 cold start tuning is a tad tricky because you really need to flood those cylinders with fuel to get it to pop off as good as 93, but the catch is you arent going to realize any benefit of E85 in the winter. You got perfect air already, cold fuel and no traction. Why do you need the extra power and less gas mileage of E85 over 93 when you cant use it anyway?

Then you cause all kinds of static between you and your tuner talking about not being able to get it to start right when you are doing this for no gain. I already see someone talking about ortiz here and saying you should look elsewhere. My opinion having tuned 500+ gen3/4 cars just last year alone is you need to switch back to 93 in the winter like most reasonable people and not push this subject to the point where you are looking for a new tuner, trashing your old tuner and also having to spend more money.

Do everyone a favor including yourself, and just use 93 in winter if you are in a climate that gets below freezing. Its just not necessary to run E85 especially when you are likely getting winter blend anyway which is always garbage.

Now if you are in say FL and having cold start issues in temps like 50-70, then thats a simple fix that shouldnt be hosing down the cylinders with excess fuel and washing them down.

Where exactly did I trash the tuner? I shouldn't get what I pay for ? Its a simple revise tune. I love the tune from Ortiz and it was warm when I got it done and the problem was still there. There are multiple supercharged and turbo charged straight e85 Mustangs around me with LTH and full exhaust catless that cold start and it doesn't sound crazy.

 

[Steve8989]

Id recommend getting a device and you can log it for Ortiz and get the cold start fixed I can help with getting an RTD out to you

Honestly I should of just bought a tuner device and then brought it with when everything was installed/tuned instead of having the shop us one of theirs and have my tune on file. With how crazy my work schedule is and how much I'm on the road all over the US, its hard to get things lined up. No hate towards Ortiz performance at all.

 

[engineermike]

To @mejohn50 's point, most aftermarket tuners are using HPTuners which doesn't give you access to all the data needed to "fix" cold start.

Just a few comments on Ford flex fueling:

- Cranking fuel, per OEM Ford flex calibrations, can be 3x as much on E85 than gasoline.

- Someone mentioned GDI blend...Ford actually commands less GDI and more PFI during cold cranking.

- Startup DI timing is different for E85. There are 4 tables for this but HPT does not define the e85 tables so you can't how Ford changed this to make it start better. The tables are defined in PCMTec, though.

- HPT has the CSER and starting GDI FFV table names mixed up for FFV so if you don't realize this it can be very confusing and even misleading.

- After startup, not all the fuel is participating in combustion, and it is worse with E85. Ford calls this "lost fuel". HPT has 5 lost fuel tables defined, but they are only for gasoline. There are 5 more for FFV but they are hidden and drastically different. As such, aftermarket tuners can't pluck the data out of them for use on dedicated E85 tunes.

As a side note, it is interesting if you do the math using the lost fuel tables. The units of the table are Phi, which is 1/lambda, and they are adders to stoichiometry. For instance, at 20 deg F on gasoline, the value from the table is 0.874. So target lamba on gasoline is 1/(1+.874) = .53. The same temp value for E85 is a whopping 2.4, which translates to a lambda of 1/(1+2.4) = .29. Also to note is these numbers increase very rapidly in the first 2-5 seconds after startup.

 

[robvas]

Is there noticeably more oil fuel dilution during the winter on e85 cars?

 

[engineermike]

Is there noticeably more oil fuel dilution during the winter on e85 cars?

Ford builds in an oil degradation factor as a function of ethanol blend %. Don’t quote me but I think it’s around a 2x factor at 85% ethanol. I’m telling you guys, the ford flex logic is way better than people give it credit for.

 

[robvas]

Ford builds in an oil degradation factor as a function of ethanol blend %. Don’t quote me but I think it’s around a 2x factor at 85% ethanol. I’m telling you guys, the ford flex logic is way better than people give it credit for.

Meaning the OLM takes that into consideration?

 

[engineermike]

Meaning the OLM takes that into consideration?

That's how I understand it:

This looks to me like anything under 20% ethanol is no change, and anything over 65% learned ethanol doubles the degradation rate in the OLM, with a linear slope in the middle. To be clear, just because the table exists doesn't mean it's being used or is used how we interpret. For all we know, there's a switch somewhere else that turns it off or this is used for phaser feed-forward control. But I would say more likely is it's a multiplier for the OLM.

 

[ZXMustang]

That's how I understand it:

This looks to me like anything under 20% ethanol is no change, and anything over 65% learned ethanol doubles the degradation rate in the OLM, with a linear slope in the middle. To be clear, just because the table exists doesn't mean it's being used or is used how we interpret. For all we know, there's a switch somewhere else that turns it off or this is used for phaser feed-forward control. But I would say more likely is it's a multiplier for the OLM.

after talking to some of the folks at HPT a while back, it’s been made clear that they are only able to gently scratch the surface of what’s in the OEM calibration with our access with vcm editor. And yes odds are that most of what we could finely configure for just about anything is buried in code never to be found. But tuner bad.

 

[mejohn50]

after talking to some of the folks at HPT a while back, it’s been made clear that they are only able to gently scratch the surface of what’s in the OEM calibration with our access with vcm editor. And yes odds are that most of what we could finely configure for just about anything is buried in code never to be found. But tuner bad.

This is a solved problem. Every parameter you could ever dream of having access to is available in off the shelf software.

 

[ZXMustang]

This is a solved problem. Every parameter you could ever dream of having access to is available in off the shelf software.

Not even close. You just need to stop. Just about every post in this thread you have shared is littered with false information. I’ll ask directly, how many of these cars have you tuned? What off the shelf software are you skilled in? Please let’s hear it.

 

[mejohn50]

Not even close. You just need to stop.

Evidently you have no clue what level of parameter access PCMTEC provides.

Just about every post in this thread you have shared is littered with false information.

Such as?

I’ll ask directly, how many of these cars have you tuned?

Why does that matter? What number would satisfy you? Or, is this just an attempt to discredit me with a meaningless metric?

The number you have tuned is irrelevant to me. People use metrics like the number of cars tuned or the number of records to describe how great a tuner is. None of that matters when a nearly stock car on E85 can't start normally when it's 40 or 50 degrees out.

What off the shelf software are you skilled in? Please let’s hear it.

I'll spare you the entire list, including non-Ford platforms, stand alone ECMs, and heavy duty diesel tuning software. I will just keep it to HP Tuners and PCMTEC since we are talking about off the shelf software for modern Fords.

 

[Pistol_91]

Not even close. You just need to stop. Just about every post in this thread you have shared is littered with false information. I’ll ask directly, how many of these cars have you tuned? What off the shelf software are you skilled in? Please let’s hear it.

There's a handful of people on this forum alone that tune these cars as a hobby. Let that sink in.

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