Coyote 5.0 Gen 2 build guidance help

[Highplainsdakota]

Hi guys,

Please help me with my Coyote build! I am about to purchase a salvage 2015-2017 Coyote Gen 2 from a Mustang GT for a Factory Five Racing Mk4 Cobra kit. There are several necessary modifications needed to fit the engine to the car, but my questions are mostly related to upgrading the engine itself. But first, a disclaimer...

I have searched through the forums here and elsewhere but haven't found specific enough answers to guide me. The help I need is with the Coyote gen 2 engine and not with mustangs. Sorry for the hijacking of your great forum, but I do believe you guys are going to have the answers I need, and it should be applicable and relevant to guys looking to upgrade this platform. I am a relative noob to engines in general. I have a nice clean shop and most of the tools I need. I am mechanically inclined and have some friends and resources to help with this. I have scoped out a few machine shops in my area that can help if I need major work done, but I want to do most of the non-machining work myself. It's the philosophy of what to change, improve, bolt on that I need help with. I understand the stock Coyote makes about 390 RWHP and maybe 375 ft-lbs torque. I would like to improve that without using a supercharger, turbo, or nitrous.

The Car:
Gross weight: 2,500 lbs, headers and side pipes, no cats.
Independent rear suspension from a Mustang GT, 8.8 rear end with 3.55 gears, detroit truetrac.
Tremec TKX with .68 5th gear

Engine:
Salvage 2015-2017 Coyote 5.0L Gen 2 from Mustang GT with about 45,000 to 60,000 miles.
It will be fuel injected. I will likely buy the Ford Performance wiring harness and Holley Terminator X max
I have to change the oil pan
Tune after build

Goals:
400-500 HP and torque (more if possible without boost).
More torque on the low end without changing the rear differential gears. Low end torque is more important to me than HP due to the way I will drive this.
Street weekend driving for fun only. No strip, drag, or racing. I may take the car to a track one day for fun, but not at all routine.

The philosophy:
I don't mind spending some money on smaller gains. I want to take the engine apart and put it back together for my own education. I am firm on going with the Gen 2 Coyote. The Gen 3 apparently can't be tuned nearly as easily, can't have the cylinders honed due to the plasma coating, and is much more complicated with the direct injection. I want to fix the weaknesses inherent to the Gen 2 coyote such as the timing chains and oil pump gears. I will absolutely make the easy improvements such as intake, exhaust, and tune.


Let's start with some questions:
1: What's the best intake and throttle body to use? I'm thinking the GT350 intake, upgrading the 80mm throttle body to 87mm. Others recommend the cobra jet, the Gen 3 intake, or even the F150 intake for better torque. (I will figure out a cold air intake that fits the cobra).
2: Should I install new cams? Specific recommendations? I want to let the variable valve timing do its thing after a tune, so I don't want to lock the phasers. I don't care that much about changing the exhaust note. Just more torque. (I plan on installing the Ford Hi Performance cam drive kit which includes GT350 intake and exhaust phasers, crank sprocket, Boss 302 timing change tensioners, timing chains, etc. So I'm in there anyway, plus it would be fun!)
3: Should I change the oil pump gears to a billet version?
4: Should I have the crank reground after only 50-60K miles???
5: I understand the connecting rods are a weak link when you near 600 hp. I don't think I'll get there but if I'm deep in the engine I don't mind putting in new ones. If I do, should I also be changing the pistons to forged? If I get new pistons, rings, and rods, don't I have to bore the block to make sure they fit appropriately? I assume this would only be necessary if I decided to boost in the future.
6: What can I do to the heads to improve them. I hear about having a machine shop port them. Are there better heads than stock?
7: Are there any other parts I should change out while I have it apart? Valve springs?

Thanks in advance for all the thoughts and answers. Let me know where the pitfalls are and how deep to get here.

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[5.0_Lojos]

Just add a SC and call it a day. More power, less money in the end and room to grow with supporting mods and or a fuel system upgrade.

 

[1MeanZ]

I'll answer the questions individually based on what I've learned, but the short answer I'll give you is to dump the stock Gen 2 engine in the car and leave it alone. Pop a cam cover off and if it's clean inside, put the cam cover back on and run it....

1. The stock Gen 2 intake makes the best torque of any Coyote intake minus an F150 intake. The stock Gen 2 intake is prone to cracking or CMCV shaft failure, not SUPER common, but it does happen. The GT350 intake will make less torque but lots more power at the top end, you'd want to rev it to at least 7500 or more. For what you'd want, I'd run the stock Gen 2 intake and only change it after you get a feel for the car.
2. I'm not aware of any camshafts that make more torque than stock. I thought the Gen 2 engine already had a lot of Boss 302 timing components but I could be wrong there. Again, for torque, leave it stock.
3. stock gears are fine unless you plan on running a blower, banging the engine off the rev limiter constantly, or both.
4. No, again if it ain't broke, don't fix it. put it in the car and try it out first.
5. I don't know who told you the rods are weak and break at 600hp, it's not even close to true. For NA torque focused application, leave the engine stock...
6. Porting is very expensive and will only yield small gains at high rpm, again not inline with your stated goals. GT350 heads are supposed to be better, but in your application, I'm not sure if the difference would be measurable or not using the stock cams and Gen 2 intake.
7. Unless you're taking it over 8k rpm all the time, leave it alone and put it in the car.

In case I wasn't clear, the engine in stock form should hit your performance target with a good exhaust and solid tune. Put it in the car, get it running, and the make engine changes based on what the car needs.

 

[robvas]

Cams are going to ruin the low end and only provide power at high RPM

For increasing low and midrange power you'd basically be best off with the stock cams, F150 intake, and a stroker crank

pointless to touch the heads, rods, pistons etc if you're going to be NA

 

[Strokerswild]

I'll answer the questions individually based on what I've learned, but the short answer I'll give you is to dump the stock Gen 2 engine in the car and leave it alone. Pop a cam cover off and if it's clean inside, put the cam cover back on and run it....

1. The stock Gen 2 intake makes the best torque of any Coyote intake minus an F150 intake. The stock Gen 2 intake is prone to cracking or CMCV shaft failure, not SUPER common, but it does happen. The GT350 intake will make less torque but lots more power at the top end, you'd want to rev it to at least 7500 or more. For what you'd want, I'd run the stock Gen 2 intake and only change it after you get a feel for the car.
2. I'm not aware of any camshafts that make more torque than stock. I thought the Gen 2 engine already had a lot of Boss 302 timing components but I could be wrong there. Again, for torque, leave it stock.
3. stock gears are fine unless you plan on running a blower, banging the engine off the rev limiter constantly, or both.
4. No, again if it ain't broke, don't fix it. put it in the car and try it out first.
5. I don't know who told you the rods are weak and break at 600hp, it's not even close to true. For NA torque focused application, leave the engine stock...
6. Porting is very expensive and will only yield small gains at high rpm, again not inline with your stated goals. GT350 heads are supposed to be better, but in your application, I'm not sure if the difference would be measurable or not using the stock cams and Gen 2 intake.
7. Unless you're taking it over 8k rpm all the time, leave it alone and put it in the car.

In case I wasn't clear, the engine in stock form should hit your performance target with a good exhaust and solid tune. Put it in the car, get it running, and the make engine changes based on what the car needs.

This.

I'd replace timing chain-related parts since they're easy to do since the engine will be out and easy to work on, slap on a GT350 intake with a throttle body adapter and call it a day. It'll be a ripper, my brother has one in the works.

 

[Highplainsdakota]

Just add a SC and call it a day. More power, less money in the end and room to grow with supporting mods and or a fuel system upgrade.

I’ve seen this answer a bunch, but then people say I can expect my connecting rods and pistons to fail, so I would have to replace those anyway. If I attempt to upgrade things without a supercharger first and I’m disappointed with the power, then the engine is ready to accept the upgrade.

Still, I’d like that to be a last resort.

 

[Highplainsdakota]

Guys, thank you for all the opinions! I bought a book on the coyote engine that suggested the rods were and timing chains are the first to worry about with increased power. And even then, they were talking above 600 hp.

Since this car is small and light, a supercharged coyote may be too much. I’m happy to do less to the engine, and will leave the crank, cams, rods and pistons alone.

I will probably do the timing chain upgrade as it seems easy and beneficial.

Follow up questions:

1: At what mileage (purchased as a salvage engine), would the above opinions change? Ie: definitely bore to freshen up the cylinders and put new internals in simply due to wear?

2: Does everyone agree that putting a supercharger on a stock gen 2 coyote (with better exhaust and a tune) is reasonable for the stock engine and unlikely to break parts? I would like to avoid taking back out of the car. I am not going to be pushing this car too hard, launching from rev limiter, racing etc.

again, thanks for the insight

 

[5.0_Lojos]

Honestly bro, just like anything, we are never satisfied but with all things being equal and assuming you can control yourself a properly tuned pump gas supercharged 5.0 at 600-650hp is plentiful and very fun. If this doesn't do it and u want the "more" and be at 1000hp plus to really be somebody than yeah I guess. But a solid 5.0 can handle a lot and be very fun. The more u do the more it cost. An out the box 5.0 as it sits can handle a SC and be fun right out the box. Again, be mindful of the limitations at hand.

 

[chuckhammer]

An E85 tune will offer significant torque and power gains due to additional ignition timing made possible by increased octane. Torque increase below 3k rpm is especially noticeable.

To do that on a Gen 2 motor it may need larger fuel injectors.

 

[K4fxd]

I'm basically going to parrot what has been said. If you want torque get a positive displacement blower.

As far as intake manifolds I have tried most of them. For torque the 18 up F150 manifold wins hands down. No real hit to HP either. Stay away from the 17 and earlier F150 manifold, it is a real dog. The GT350 manifold gives up torque but hits nice above 5500, pulls to 7400 with stock gen 2 cams. The 18 up F150 pulls from 1500 to 7K

Unless you plan on banging off the hard rev limiter I'd leave the stock oil pump gears alone. Pistons and rods are fine. I'd replace the timing set and upgrade the tensioners and phasers.

At 60K miles if you have the engine out might as well freshen it up. If you are going to put a blower on it I'd drop the compression to 10 to 1, easier to tune this on pump gas, and safer.

 

[SheepDog]

Why use a Coyote at all?

By the time you get done upgrading the internals, buying the wiring harness/control pack, and all the other things you want to change, you may as well just buy and aluminum block pushrod 302, 347 or 363 from Ford performance. Lighter than a Coyote, Sounds better than a Coyote, will fit the engine bay of the MK4 Cobra much easier, and will have the low end torque you want (especially with the right camshaft)

The Coyote is top heavy and extremely wide at the top considering the DOHC heads.
The Coyote without mufflers/cats sounds like complete shyte

 

[robvas]

godzilla?

 

[K4fxd]

godzilla?

That would take care of the torque problem.

I do believe at 2500 pounds the stock coyote will have plenty of torque, even with the GT350 manifold.

 

[Strokerswild]

Why use a Coyote at all?

By the time you get done upgrading the internals, buying the wiring harness/control pack, and all the other things you want to change, you may as well just buy and aluminum block pushrod 302, 347 or 363 from Ford performance. Lighter than a Coyote, Sounds better than a Coyote, will fit the engine bay of the MK4 Cobra much easier, and will have the low end torque you want (especially with the right camshaft)

The Coyote is top heavy and extremely wide at the top considering the DOHC heads.
The Coyote without mufflers/cats sounds like complete shyte

Very true. Especially the bold.

This was supposed to be going into my brother's FF Cobra replica until he decided to go Coyote. Coward.

 

[SheepDog]

godzilla?

Except that it weighs 600 pounds

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