Boosted IAT2 temps

[Greyhorse]

What kind of temperature rise are you guys seeing with the IAT2 (post charger/turbo) intake temps
Ive got the the roush setup and generally see 40-50 degree rise , anybody modify their setup and have a temp rise comparison before/after they could share to see what products out there are really making a difference?
Read an article where ID Motorsports was quoted saying the new roush setup was only seeing a 7-8 degree temperature rise which has to be bullshit because im not seeing it or see how they could be (maybe at start-up on cold engine for the first 2 minutes) in stock kit form.

Ive got the 170 degree tstat going in when i get a chance, cold now so not really a problem with temps.

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[AdrianMAK]

On both of our Procharged Cars, we are seeing 18-22 deg from the start of a 1/4mile pass to the end of the same pass. On the dyno we see a little more due to the car being static. Driving around the cars operate around 6-10 degrees above ambient.

 

[908ssp]

I see a 10 to 15 degree rise all summer long. I don't have a Roush system and the system I do have has extended great diligence in lowering IAT2 temps where ever possible.

 

[JPSTANG]

i have the Procharger D1X stage 2. I look at the outside to intake temps and really only see 6 to 7 max rise. When I'm cruising she holds 4 to 5 rise pretty regularly. It's really kind of crazy.

 

[ugstang17]

First off the coolant t-stat has nothing to do with IAT temps. Look at ECT for that.

Second - Roush default tuned or aftermarket tuned? 15+ cars with Roush default tune only display IAT (the inlet temp) on the gauge display of the car as I understand it. IAT2 has to be accessed via a datalogger or OBDII gauge device of some like Aeroforce. You may need to pruchase some means of datalogging or accessing OBDII data to get the actual IAT2 reading.

If the car is aftermarket tuned, then that means you are seeing the IAT temps used in the tuning strategy on the display. WHY? Because on 15+ cars Roush chose to make their IAT2 data proprietary. Because of this an aftermarket mod kit was created that replaces the Roush IAT2 sensor and which is then tied into IAT by means of a splitter cable. Therefore your IAT on the MAF is not longer used. On my car this is the case because I have an after market tune on my PD setup.

So the question is what are your IAT2 temps under varying conditions and what are your concerns? Most tuning strategies on PB blower setups will start pulling timing when IAT (IAT2 in the Roush case) goes above 130-135 F.

There are several ways to obtain lower IAT temps if this is your actual concern.

1.) A larger heat removal surface area
2.) A higher volume recirc pump
3.) Lower the antifreeze/water ratio (more water less antifreeze) in your H.E mixture.
4.) A larger res that can hold more mix and/or ice.
5.) A combination of any or all four.

VMP makes a nice triple pass unit with two 11" fans on it. Did a nice job on my 2014. However, Whipple makes a monster dual pass H.E. with no fans and that is the direction I will go this spring to get around the loud running HE fans all the time (kind've a giveaway that you are running a power adder). IN addition to this Whipple also has a larger volume recirc pump that I will install as well. Both are virtually a direct swap out and both (if you do the HE and pump with whipple) are in the 750-800 dollar range.

Driving on highway my IAT temps in 50 degree weather run 115-120. On the dyno after three pulls in 52 degree air and the fan running (three pulls in 30-40 minutes so little cool down time) temps were at 119F but rose to 152 after the pull with the car sitting at idle. Granted the fan cannot generate teh air movement equal to the car moving at 150MPH but regardless this tells me that in hotter temps saturation will occur much sooner in real life summer track conditions. This is my reason for upgrading in the spring to a better HE. The ROUSH dinky HE is a POS.

 

[Greyhorse]

First off the coolant t-stat has nothing to do with IAT temps. Look at ECT for that.

Second - Roush default tuned or aftermarket tuned? 15+ cars with Roush default tune only display IAT (the inlet temp) on the gauge display of the car as I understand it. IAT2 has to be accessed via a datalogger or OBDII gauge device of some like Aeroforce. You may need to pruchase some means of datalogging or accessing OBDII data to get the actual IAT2 reading.

If the car is aftermarket tuned, then that means you are seeing the IAT temps used in the tuning strategy on the display. WHY? Because on 15+ cars Roush chose to make their IAT2 data proprietary. Because of this an aftermarket mod kit was created that replaces the Roush IAT2 sensor and which is then tied into IAT by means of a splitter cable. Therefore your IAT on the MAF is not longer used. On my car this is the case because I have an after market tune on my PD setup.

So the question is what are your IAT2 temps under varying conditions and what are your concerns? Most tuning strategies on PB blower setups will start pulling timing when IAT (IAT2 in the Roush case) goes above 130-135 F.

There are several ways to obtain lower IAT temps if this is your actual concern.

1.) A larger heat removal surface area
2.) A higher volume recirc pump
3.) Lower the antifreeze/water ratio (more water less antifreeze) in your H.E mixture.
4.) A larger res that can hold more mix and/or ice.
5.) A combination of any or all four.

VMP makes a nice triple pass unit with two 11" fans on it. Did a nice job on my 2014. However, Whipple makes a monster dual pass H.E. with no fans and that is the direction I will go this spring to get around the loud running HE fans all the time (kind've a giveaway that you are running a power adder). IN addition to this Whipple also has a larger volume recirc pump that I will install as well. Both are virtually a direct swap out and both (if you do the HE and pump with whipple) are in the 750-800 dollar range.

Driving on highway my IAT temps in 50 degree weather run 115-120. On the dyno after three pulls in 52 degree air and the fan running (three pulls in 30-40 minutes so little cool down time) temps were at 119F but rose to 152 after the pull with the car sitting at idle. Granted the fan cannot generate teh air movement equal to the car moving at 150MPH but regardless this tells me that in hotter temps saturation will occur much sooner in real life summer track conditions. This is my reason for upgrading in the spring to a better HE. The ROUSH dinky HE is a POS.

 

[Greyhorse]

running the roush tune but using a nGauge to see IAT2 temps, my concern is that whether or not the 40-50 degree rise in temps are to be expected with this setup or maybe ive got an air bubble or something going on since i read someone only seen a 7-8 degree raise in temps post charger supposedly with the same setup. I was thinking this wasnt possible with a pd type blower. Or maybe im wrong. And what some people are using that would work the best, this brand over this brand or design when it comes to tanks or HE etc...
This temp rise is just me cruising around lightly , i didnt have the ngauge when i took it to the track but thats what started my concerns when i it had 7.50 1/8 mile pass and the a 7.80 1/8 mile right afterwards about an hour later. Couldnt see the IAT2 temps then but i figured it was from heat soak or either it redline during a shift causing it to cut back (A10 auto) . a tuned N/A car can do that.
It was a 90 degree day and high DA as well but i figured it should have a 7.00 1/8 mile , Had a 1.71 60'

 

[ugstang17]

running the roush tune but using a nGauge to see IAT2 temps, my concern is that whether or not the 40-50 degree rise in temps are to be expected with this setup or maybe ive got an air bubble or something going on since i read someone only seen a 7-8 degree raise in temps post charger supposedly with the same setup. I was thinking this wasn't possible with a pd type blower. Or maybe im wrong. And what some people are using that would work the best, this brand over this brand or design when it comes to tanks or HE etc...
This temp rise is just me cruising around lightly , i didnt have the ngauge when i took it to the track but thats what started my concerns when i it had 7.50 1/8 mile pass and the a 7.80 1/8 mile right afterwards about an hour later. Couldnt see the IAT2 temps then but i figured it was from heat soak or either it redline during a shift causing it to cut back (A10 auto) . a tuned N/A car can do that.
It was a 90 degree day and high DA as well but i figured it should have a 7.00 1/8 mile , Had a 1.71 60'

I pulled a log I sent in recently to my tuner. Conditions - Outdoor Air Temp was 50-55F. Dry and partly sunny. Driving normal 30-60 MPH. ECT 198F avg. for purposes of referencing the operating state of the engine.

IAT temps (IAT2 on your setup) ranged from 68F - 100F with an avg for the 5 minute log at 82F. Keep in mind this is 50F degree OAT. Pop the lid on your tank with ye on engine off and make sure you observe coolant flow. The recirc pump will move the fluid very clearly. This is on the stock Roush H.E. And I can assure you I have no air bubbles in my system. This datalog includes stopping and turning around. It includes uphill and downhill driving. The car had been on the raod for mroe than 20 minutes prior to starting this datalog.

IAT2 temps become a concern over 130-135F depending on where the tuner chooses to start pulling timing. Up to that setpoint the timing advance is not effected by IAT2. On hot days with the Roush whimpy HE you will see temps exceed 135 in traffic or stop/go driving conditions in town more than likely. It would be expected. However it would not be good if this is happening at 50F on an open road driving 55MPH with the cruise set and no one in front of you to block airflow.

Another thing that can be done (if not already) is a change in grill which can allow more air flow in. Other things can also be done to direct airflow through the HE rather than around it improve heat removal. The next step is to increase volume by upgrading the recirc pump, HE, etc.

If you want to read some good 411 on this topic go to Department of Boost website and read the research they have done on PD superchargers and H.E.'s. They don't have anything for 11+ Mustangs the last time I checked but their research can be of benefit to you.

 

[Roh92cp]

There is so much bad data on these forums about IAT2 temps and reason was pointed out by ugstang17. Most people think that inlet temp from dash is readout and pulled from MAF is accurate, but only with centi setups blowing through it. The other mistake made is when people put an NGuage or OBD2 scanner type in and then pull up the IAT2 PID. Yes it will read and display this on say an Ngauge but it's only extrapolated data and not a true reading. for true IAT2 you must have a dedicated IAT sensor installed and a system like Zietronix or others that so the same to read it properly and have real data.

I've done a lot of testing and have had 2 different standalone IAT2 sensors installed (Zietronix and PLX) running at the same time to compare against each other and the data from IAT1, IAT2 reading from NGauge. Stock MAF sensor (IAT1) and IAT2) are slow compared to the dedicated standalone systems and IAT2 which is the extrapolated was 10-15 degrees lower than actual reading from standalone unit. Good data is hard to come by when comparing IAT temps on these threads, just too many people don't have accurate data and don't understand why.

 

[908ssp]

The post above is very true. I too had a stand alone gauge in my manifold and it did read higher than the read out from the IAT sensor mounted in the manifold and interpreted by the software. Unfortunately you almost have to quote that data as others don't have the stand alone gauge so if you want to compare you kind of have to compare data based on the same method of measure.

 

[Ruiner46]

There is so much bad data on these forums about IAT2 temps and reason was pointed out by ugstang17. Most people think that inlet temp from dash is readout and pulled from MAF is accurate, but only with centi setups blowing through it. The other mistake made is when people put an NGuage or OBD2 scanner type in and then pull up the IAT2 PID. Yes it will read and display this on say an Ngauge but it's only extrapolated data and not a true reading. for true IAT2 you must have a dedicated IAT sensor installed and a system like Zietronix or others that so the same to read it properly and have real data.

I've done a lot of testing and have had 2 different standalone IAT2 sensors installed (Zietronix and PLX) running at the same time to compare against each other and the data from IAT1, IAT2 reading from NGauge. Stock MAF sensor (IAT1) and IAT2) are slow compared to the dedicated standalone systems and IAT2 which is the extrapolated was 10-15 degrees lower than actual reading from standalone unit. Good data is hard to come by when comparing IAT temps on these threads, just too many people don't have accurate data and don't understand why.

I disagree with you when you say that IAT2 is extrapolated data when read through a PID. It is not extrapolated, the data comes from an actual sensor. However, the sensor calibration is not accurate, and a Zeitronix sensor will be faster and more accurate for an actual temperature reading. The sensor itself is actually fast, but the ECU does some filtering to slow down the response so that the rapid changes don't cause issues with the tune.

With the Whipple tune, they have adjusted the IAT2 sensor voltage-temperature curve. Looking at how the curve was modified, it looks to be so that they could get some more resolution in a certain range. In that range, the actual temperature reading is not accurate, but they have more points for adjustability in that area that they can base the tune's timing adjustments on. For instance, with the old curve, a small voltage change makes large jumps in temperature, and in that range you can get wild swings in timing due to the exponential nature of the curve. With the adjusted curve, they flatten out the region where the temperature often sits, so that they can make small changes in timing with the small voltage changes. The tune bases its changes on the translated temperature, not the voltage, so in order to get more resolution, you have to mess up the accuracy of the temperature reading. In the end, you don't really care about having an accurate temperature reading, you only care about having the tune react in a predictable way to the temperature changes. The customer can't see IAT2 without going through a lot of trouble anyway, most never look, so who cares what the number is, as long as the tune works well.

 

[Roh92cp]

I disagree with you when you say that IAT2 is extrapolated data when read through a PID. It is not extrapolated, the data comes from an actual sensor. However, the sensor calibration is not accurate, and a Zeitronix sensor will be faster and more accurate for an actual temperature reading. The sensor itself is actually fast, but the ECU does some filtering to slow down the response so that the rapid changes don't cause issues with the tune.

With the Whipple tune, they have adjusted the IAT2 sensor voltage-temperature curve. Looking at how the curve was modified, it looks to be so that they could get some more resolution in a certain range. In that range, the actual temperature reading is not accurate, but they have more points for adjustability in that area that they can base the tune's timing adjustments on. For instance, with the old curve, a small voltage change makes large jumps in temperature, and in that range you can get wild swings in timing due to the exponential nature of the curve. With the adjusted curve, they flatten out the region where the temperature often sits, so that they can make small changes in timing with the small voltage changes. The tune bases its changes on the translated temperature, not the voltage, so in order to get more resolution, you have to mess up the accuracy of the temperature reading. In the end, you don't really care about having an accurate temperature reading, you only care about having the tune react in a predictable way to the temperature changes. The customer can't see IAT2 without going through a lot of trouble anyway, most never look, so who cares what the number is, as long as the tune works well.

I've talked with Dustin at Whipple on this and he agrees the data from the Whipple AIT2 sensor read through an OBS2 scanner will not be accurate, and when people here a throwing out numbers to compare accuracy does matters. You can disagree, but I verified with 2 dedicated standalone sensors running at the same time against the the ECU PID read through the Ngauge and it was close at 60 to 80, but as temps rise the ECU PID is reading way low. I've also talked with Jason Etter at Dept of Boost on this and his testing also confirms my findings.

 

[Ruiner46]

I've talked with Dustin at Whipple on this and he agrees the data from the Whipple AIT2 sensor read through an OBS2 scanner will not be accurate, and when people here a throwing out numbers to compare accuracy does matters. You can disagree, but I verified with 2 dedicated standalone sensors running at the same time against the the ECU PID read through the Ngauge and it was close at 60 to 80, but as temps rise the ECU PID is reading way low. I've also talked with Jason Etter at Dept of Boost on this and his testing also confirms my findings.

I think you misunderstood me. I agree with you that the actual reading is inaccurate, but I think the reason for that is intentional, and is to provide adjustability in the tune. Where I disagreed with you is when you said the reading was extrapolated. It is not extrapolated. I can look at the PID reading and unplug the sensor and see the PID react.

 

[Roh92cp]

I think you misunderstood me. I agree with you that the actual reading is inaccurate, but I think the reason for that is intentional, and is to provide adjustability in the tune. Where I disagreed with you is when you said the reading was extrapolated. It is not extrapolated. I can look at the PID reading and unplug the sensor and see the PID react.

Ahh! So you are unplugging the Whipple IAT2 sensors and seeing a reaction then?

Dustin Whipple explains that the data from Whipple IAT2 sensors is read accurately by the PCM, is the data used internally is right, however to be displayed the PID assigned isn’t setup to read it and display it accurately.

 

[kcc0521]

On both of our Procharged Cars, we are seeing 18-22 deg from the start of a 1/4mile pass to the end of the same pass. On the dyno we see a little more due to the car being static. Driving around the cars operate around 6-10 degrees above ambient.

In my experience the rise is a bit more. On my buddy's Stage 2 D1SC procharged car it rises 40 degrees on a 1/4 pass when it was 60 degrees outside. My paxton on 3.48 rose from 73-125. I guess it is possible that those cars were running less agressive pulleys. My buddy has a 4.75 on his.

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