Best return fuel system

[Headless Horseman]

I'll lay this out as simply as possible.

On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being least concern and 10 being highest concern.

A stock power/torque level car with no traction upgrades: 1

Moderately upgraded power/torque and no traction upgrades: 2

Stock power/torque level with significant traction/chassis upgrades: 5

Significant power/torque upgrades and no traction: 6

Significant power/torque upgrades and moderate traction: 7

Moderate power/torque and significant traction: 9

Significant power/torque and significant traction: 10.

There's a few inputs here but they are how much torque (meaning how much acceleration the powertrain can theoretically make) how much traction (meaning how much of that torque the tires can actually put to work), how much power (meaning how LONG the car can maintain that level of acceleration) and (power also equates to how much more fuel the motor is consuming).

The safest system would be a surge tank. This protects the supply pumps from ever being starved with an acceleration in any direction (not just forward). Typically see these on road/track cars because there's still a need for large/stock sized fuel cells. Typically you don't find the complexity of a surge tank on all out drag cars because they can dump or abandon the OE saddle style tank for a racing fuel cell located nearer to the back (which serves as it's own surge tank).

Outside of a surge tank, if you have nothing surrounding the pumps (i.e. naked) then the harder you can accelerate (torque and traction) and the longer you can maintain that (slosh to the rear and stay there) then the greater the risk that the pumps will suck dry any fuel near them when you mash.

So the harder the car can send fuel to the back and the longer it can stay there the more fuel you'll need to run in the tank to keep the pumps from potentially starving and running lean conditions.

I've left out the part about the tune on upgraded power/modified cars, as OE tune seems to have adequate protections against fuel starve conditions (as we've seen with the GT350's in long sweeping left hand turn scenarios). Aftermarket tunes, not as much. If it runs lean, it can definitely hurt or smoke the motor.

In summary, you may not need a surge tank, but if you can buy a system that features at least a modified OE bucket or an upgraded bucket with one way check valves to allow fuel in but not out, that's more protection than just fuel sloshing around and hoping for the best.

Thank you for that broken down explanation. That makes perfectly good sense. Who makes this style of system? And it does allow for E85 with boost?

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[DougS550]

I'll lay this out as simply as possible.

On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being least concern and 10 being highest concern.

A stock power/torque level car with no traction upgrades: 1

Moderately upgraded power/torque and no traction upgrades: 2

Stock power/torque level with significant traction/chassis upgrades: 5

Significant power/torque upgrades and no traction: 6

Significant power/torque upgrades and moderate traction: 7

Moderate power/torque and significant traction: 9

Significant power/torque and significant traction: 10.

There's a few inputs here but they are how much torque (meaning how much acceleration the powertrain can theoretically make) how much traction (meaning how much of that torque the tires can actually put to work), how much power (meaning how LONG the car can maintain that level of acceleration) and (power also equates to how much more fuel the motor is consuming).

The safest system would be a surge tank. This protects the supply pumps from ever being starved with an acceleration in any direction (not just forward). Typically see these on road/track cars because there's still a need for large/stock sized fuel cells. Typically you don't find the complexity of a surge tank on all out drag cars because they can dump or abandon the OE saddle style tank for a racing fuel cell located nearer to the back (which serves as it's own surge tank).

Outside of a surge tank, if you have nothing surrounding the pumps (i.e. naked) then the harder you can accelerate (torque and traction) and the longer you can maintain that (slosh to the rear and stay there) then the greater the risk that the pumps will suck dry any fuel near them when you mash.

So the harder the car can send fuel to the back and the longer it can stay there the more fuel you'll need to run in the tank to keep the pumps from potentially starving and running lean conditions.

I've left out the part about the tune on upgraded power/modified cars, as OE tune seems to have adequate protections against fuel starve conditions (as we've seen with the GT350's in long sweeping left hand turn scenarios). Aftermarket tunes, not as much. If it runs lean, it can definitely hurt or smoke the motor.

In summary, you may not need a surge tank, but if you can buy a system that features at least a modified OE bucket or an upgraded bucket with one way check valves to allow fuel in but not out, that's more protection than just fuel sloshing around and hoping for the best.

For me, after I evaluated the unique shape of my Mustang GT fuel tank, which has no slosh type bladders, and being small, I definitely agree. With such a small tank, and Ethanol burning about 30% faster than petroleum gasolene Under boost, I did not want to have to start looking for a E85 gas Station ever 70 miles or so (1/2 Tank), to me that's just plane crazy. I know people are running bucketless systems with no issues and I'm glad to see that But, I am a "What-If" guy and to me a bucketless setup with the mustang tank design, just has to many of them. Plus, something I happen to notice when researching HP Cars is, they all seem to use a Bucket style type design fuel pump assembly. But that is just me. When I made my final decision as to which Fuel Pump assembly with bucket I wanted. I went with a Bucket style Fuel Hat Assembly which not only continuously cycled fuel from the bucket into the tank to keep the fuel cool, I also wanted PWM controller which plugged directly into/worked directly with my OEM FMP, FPDM and PCM circuit/system. Don't know how it will work, I will see in the coming week.

 

[Headless Horseman]

For me, after I evaluated the unique shape of my Mustang GT fuel tank, which has no slosh type bladders, and being small, I definitely agree. With such a small tank, and Ethanol burning about 30% faster than petroleum gasolene Under boost, I did not want to have to start looking for a E85 gas Station ever 70 miles or so (1/2 Tank), to me that's just plane crazy. I know people are running bucketless systems with no issues and I'm glad to see that But, I am a "What-If" guy and to me a bucketless setup with the mustang tank design, just has to many of them. Plus, something I happen to notice when researching HP Cars is, they all seem to use a Bucket style type design fuel pump assembly. But that is just me. When I made my final decision as to which Fuel Pump assembly with bucket I wanted. I went with a Bucket style Fuel Hat Assembly which not only continuously cycled fuel from the bucket into the tank to keep the fuel cool, I also wanted PWM controller which plugged directly into/worked directly with my OEM FMP, FPDM and PCM circuit/system. Don't know how it will work, I will see in the coming week.

Sooooooooo........ who sales a complete system on this style? Seems you and I have the same concerns as far as drivability goes. I have no idea what OEM,FMP,FPDM,PCM circuit system is either.

 

[DougS550]

Sooooooooo........ who sales a complete system on this style? Seems you and I have the same concerns as far as drivability goes. I have no idea what OEM,FMP,FPDM,PCM circuit system is either.

Beside the KPM 1500HP with their PWM Controller, I installed a -8 PTFE steel braided fuel feed line to my Fuel rail. Innovate E85 Content analyser and gauge with Radium Split Fuel flow Adapter and Radium 6 Micron inline fuel filter.
KPM is one:


- OEM: Original Equipment Manufacturing. (Its is everything your car came with from the factory)
- PWM Controller: (Pulse Width Modulation): The KPM PWM controller is pre-programmed to monitor your vehicle fuel pressure across all engine loads which in turn allows the controller to calculate the required level of electrical current to your fuel pumps. This in turn delivers the correct amount of fuel to your engine as required across all conditions.

- FPDM: (Fuel Pump Driver Module) controls/adjust the voltage delivered to a vehicle's fuel pump during fuel demands.

- PCM: Powertrain Control Module monitors the fuel pump monitor (FPM) circuit from the fuel pump driver module (FPDM). Maintain optimal performance and efficiency, the PCM collects and processes data from an array of sensors strategically placed throughout the vehicle. It uses this information to fine-tune engine functions and other crucial operations.
With the key on, the FPDM continuously sends a duty cycle signal to the PCM through the FPM circuit.

I am going to do my accessory on, Engine OFF fuel system prime hopefully tomorrow. Then I will Load the Basic tune from Wengerd and do the basic data logging while in park at increments of 1000, 1500, 2000, 3500, 4000 RPM and send to Wengerd. Then I will do the Freeway Data Logs and go from their.

 

[beefcake]

I would just like to add, I'm so completely confused!! What's the best system to run on the street for a daily set-up? I drive hard and would like the option to keep doing so below half a tank. I'm trying to figure this into my cost since I'll need it once I get my ESS. I'm on E85 and will stay on it with the ESS. Any help is appreciated. I don't care about brands just quality and performance. Also I'm not trying to go the cheapest route. If you do it right, you'll do it once!

fore is and has been our goto for 98% of the builds for the last 15 years
there are other options out there, but this is our goto and as good as it gets imo,

but we can setup other options for you
sai li
kpm
etc

 

[bankyf]

Beside the KPM 1500HP with their PWM Controller, I installed a -8 PTFE steel braided fuel feed line to my Fuel rail. Innovate E85 Content analyser and gauge with Radium Split Fuel flow Adapter and Radium 6 Micron inline fuel filter.
KPM is one:


- OEM: Original Equipment Manufacturing. (Its is everything your car came with from the factory)
- PWM Controller: (Pulse Width Modulation): The KPM PWM controller is pre-programmed to monitor your vehicle fuel pressure across all engine loads which in turn allows the controller to calculate the required level of electrical current to your fuel pumps. This in turn delivers the correct amount of fuel to your engine as required across all conditions.

- FPDM: (Fuel Pump Driver Module) controls/adjust the voltage delivered to a vehicle's fuel pump during fuel demands.

- PCM: Powertrain Control Module monitors the fuel pump monitor (FPM) circuit from the fuel pump driver module (FPDM). Maintain optimal performance and efficiency, the PCM collects and processes data from an array of sensors strategically placed throughout the vehicle. It uses this information to fine-tune engine functions and other crucial operations.
With the key on, the FPDM continuously sends a duty cycle signal to the PCM through the FPM circuit.

I am going to do my accessory on, Engine OFF fuel system prime hopefully tomorrow. Then I will Load the Basic tune from Wengerd and do the basic data logging while in park at increments of 1000, 1500, 2000, 3500, 4000 RPM and send to Wengerd. Then I will do the Freeway Data Logs and go from their.

Any pics of your underwood plumbing you'd like to share? I'm struggling and have probably spent hundreds in fittings for different ideas I've had. I need to come off of an 8an male on the end of the KPM stainless line with two 8an PTFE lines to Radium fuel rails with an E85 sensor incorporated in to one side. I just can't find a clean routing and location for the E85 sensor that I'm happy with.

 

[DougS550]

Any pics of your underwood plumbing you'd like to share? I'm struggling and have probably spent hundreds in fittings for different ideas I've had. I need to come off of an 8an male on the end of the KPM stainless line with two 8an PTFE lines to Radium fuel rails with an E85 sensor incorporated in to one side. I just can't find a clean routing and location for the E85 sensor that I'm happy with.

No problem. I will take and post pictures soon.

 

[horsepower addiction]

Mustangs with Fore systems die at lights under half tank? My car must have not gotten the memo.

almost seems like the trend after 2020 or so is not to come out with a product and sell it based on its merits but rather come out with a product and talk down every other competing product until people believe it and buy it….

Without the bucket. Pull up and stop hard and see what happens

 

[horsepower addiction]

Mustangs with Fore systems die at lights under half tank? My car must have not gotten the memo.

almost seems like the trend after 2020 or so is not to come out with a product and sell it based on its merits but rather come out with a product and talk down every other competing product until people believe it and buy it….

If you had been keeping up with the conversation you would have seen this

 

[LOL WUT]

If you had been keeping up with the conversation you would have seen this

What fuel system do you run?

 

[SolarFlare]

Without the bucket. Pull up and stop hard and see what happens

I’ve raced and braked plenty from 150mph….car has never shut off in a racing environment at half tank.

only shut off once going into a gas station at nearly empty, around 10miles to E.

 

[horsepower addiction]

everything in this world revolves around money and somebody making a profit you have to make money to be in business

You have a job who pays you to do what you do somebody has to pay you to do your job which means somebody has to sell something so that you can get paid. That’s the way the world works.

So come off the high horse

The differences when you have people like us to give package deals and things to save guys thousands of dollars over what they would normally pay most people are appreciative of something like that

And I’ve never had a car die or a truck at half a tank

Not really sure what high horse you’re referring to. I never said that people don’t have to make a profit. In fact I think I said that exact thing. I said that those kits were made for someone to make A profit.

Also those kits are not saving thousands of dollars. There are many different ways to build your fuel system, some can be thousands of dollars some can be hundreds. And you can get the job done a lot cheaper and achieve the same results with a little knowledge.
The f150 will have problems if you stop hard with half a tank

 

[DougS550]

Since this post started out as Return Style post, I created a seperate post on the "Returnless" KPM 1500hp with PWM controller I just installed on my 19gt.

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