Automatic braking.....wth?

[hawkbox]

Wait did someone say you can turn that POS CWA off? How? I did not see it in the book..

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[Rickycardo]

I guess my biggest concern with a system like that is that it only treats one kind of condition...stopping. I don't think I want the potential to fight a system that wants to brake when my brain says a lane change is the correct course of action. A computer's biggest flaw is that it can only go from A to B to C to D but the human mind can jump from A to WTF! without processing the intermediate steps. IMO automatic braking is a hammer and in that case every situation becomes a nail.
That's why I didn't check that box on the order form.

 

[GDP]

The ONLY reason I have for not wanting all this stuff in cars is so I don't have to pay to repair it when it fails. Otherwise I think tech like this is pretty cool.

Seen a vid of an Audi I think that had some crazy auto adjusting led/laser headlights with a HUD to warn you of certain things. The headlights and lasers would not only illuminate/warn the driver but also the person/animal in the way. Or exclude those things from being hit with light at all. Crazy time to be alive.

 

[cbrookre]

Have you not seen the commercials for these systems by other automakers? The car stops within inches of the object. INCHES. That means that you wouldn't want to let up on the brakes even if there was an impending rear collision because then you'd slam into the guy in front going that much faster and causing that much more damage.

I, too, am probably just being paranoid but there have been multiple situations where I have sped up but entered the shoulder or other lane to avoid being rear-ended. I would also question if there has been enough calibration of the system that it is not able to be fooled by something as well. I am an alert and conscious driver, and have a track record of doing things in a way that keeps me out of harms way. Until there is a proven track record here, I am with Norm. Would rather let my skill and experience do the work as opposed to the tech.

 

[Higgs Boson]

You guys are not understanding how this works if all you can say is, "I don't want it to brake for me." It does not take control away from the driver. If you drive like you always do then you will never notice it, simple as that.

I've seen systems like these save people's lives and I've seen people die from situations where this tech would have saved them. That's the bottom line.

Some of you are being small minded and think you know what it does but you are really pretty far off.....learn more before you post literally unfounded concerns based on anxiety and lack of information.

 

[Norm Peterson]

So educate me. Start by explaining whether such a system can determine road conditions (i.e. the amount of grip that it has to work with, and from that how early it must activate) in real time. If it only assumes some fixed amount of grip - as suggested by the vehicle performances in awmustang's video link - then it's at best a damage mitigation feature. But you and I both know that people will believe (or be led to believe) that it's a crash avoidance thing - which is a whole 'nother level . . . and a predictable if unintended consequence.

If I hadn't already experienced episodes where ABS flat-out got it wrong and where ESC (my wife's car has this. mine doesn't) was unreasonably quick to intervene, I'd be more willing to accept things like this. But I was an engineer before retiring, so I'm inclined to give everything new a sanity check, and I've learned to value my own experiences and observations as part of that process. It's served me well so far . . .

I track my car from time to time, and I really wouldn't want a system like this doing anything when I'm starting to ease off the brakes in order to get some front tire grip back to get turned into the corner that I was doing the braking for. Which could easily be a 125 - 65 @ 1g braking event into a 1.2g corner in traffic separated by maybe a couple of car lengths. Normal street driving is far more conservative and mildly paced, though this is balanced/offset by not always being as predictable.


There is no question that this system would have been of value to my Dad in the last few years before he passed, and I think I still have the accident report that proves it (he was still driving, albeit under a daytime restriction, at age 91). So I'm not universally against it, maybe just against it being universally fitted or forced to use it.


Norm

 

[Barrel]

You guys are not understanding how this works if all you can say is, "I don't want it to brake for me." It does not take control away from the driver. If you drive like you always do then you will never notice it, simple as that.

I've seen systems like these save people's lives and I've seen people die from situations where this tech would have saved them. That's the bottom line.

Some of you are being small minded and think you know what it does but you are really pretty far off.....learn more before you post literally unfounded concerns based on anxiety and lack of information.

I think people are just uneasy and hesitant to see the implementation of systems that encourage people to be lackadaisical when it comes to piloting their two-ton death machine - founded in reality or not. I don't think it's quite as easy as people being purposefully anti-intellectual about it.

 

[1966 Sunbeam Tiger]

I track my car from time to time, and I really wouldn't want a system like this doing anything when I'm starting to ease off the brakes in order to get some front tire grip back to get turned into the corner that I was doing the braking for. Which could easily be a 125 - 65 @ 1g braking event into a 1.2g corner in traffic separated by maybe a couple of car lengths.

You turn the system to low sensitivity or disable by covering sensors for track days.

"The sensors are located behind

a fascia cover near the driver side of the
lower grille. When the sensors are
obstructed, a vehicle ahead cannot be
detected and the collision warning system​

does not function."

I too have conducted ABS familiarity drills with my car and make my wife and son do it in theirs. I also practice threshold braking and tell ya, the PP brakes are amazing. The dust....not so much.

I have also flown and fought AH-64 Apache's. It takes A LOT to overwhelm me.

 

[Higgs Boson]

So educate me. Start by explaining whether such a system can determine road conditions (i.e. the amount of grip that it has to work with, and from that how early it must activate) in real time. If it only assumes some fixed amount of grip - as suggested by the vehicle performances in awmustang's video link - then it's at best a damage mitigation feature. But you and I both know that people will believe (or be led to believe) that it's a crash avoidance thing - which is a whole 'nother level . . . and a predictable if unintended consequence.

If I hadn't already experienced episodes where ABS flat-out got it wrong and where ESC (my wife's car has this. mine doesn't) was unreasonably quick to intervene, I'd be more willing to accept things like this. But I was an engineer before retiring, so I'm inclined to give everything new a sanity check, and I've learned to value my own experiences and observations as part of that process. It's served me well so far . . .

I track my car from time to time, and I really wouldn't want a system like this doing anything when I'm starting to ease off the brakes in order to get some front tire grip back to get turned into the corner that I was doing the braking for. Which could easily be a 125 - 65 @ 1g braking event into a 1.2g corner in traffic separated by maybe a couple of car lengths. Normal street driving is far more conservative and mildly paced, though this is balanced/offset by not always being as predictable.


There is no question that this system would have been of value to my Dad in the last few years before he passed, and I think I still have the accident report that proves it (he was still driving, albeit under a daytime restriction, at age 91). So I'm not universally against it, maybe just against it being universally fitted or forced to use it.


Norm

What kind of car did you have where the "ABS got it wrong?" What does "get it wrong mean? Do you mean there was a low traction condition where ABS activated when you would have preferred to skid across the road instead because "you got this?" More likely than not, if you are in a situation where ABS is activating, you already surpassed the limits of the vehicle in the current conditions and you did it as a human being.

A vehicle can have rain sensors, heat sensors, long and short distance radar, blind spot monitors, parking sensors, rear impact prediction sensors, etc etc etc. ABS has improved immensely since the 90s or early 2000's.

All of the fully automatic braking systems that I am aware of are only active when cruise control is active, otherwise is is a passive warning and braking assist feature in which the warning beep can be turned off at will. Are you using cruise control on the race track? It sounds like you are under some impression that these systems are waiting with bated breath in some aggressive anticipatory state to take control from you and run you off the road, which is pretty hilarious. Again, if YOU steer and YOU brake your own car, the system will never activate anyways.

Again, this tech has been on cars since the late 90s. How many track wrecks are you aware of were caused by auto brakes? For me, 0.

Again, your questions are 15 years old and have been answered. If you bring yourself up to date by reading and researching instead of arguing about it on a Mustang forum, we could all get on to arguing about wax and wheels. Better yet, DON'T buy a car with this tech and you will always be able to crash into anything of your choosing (or not choosing).

 

[Norm Peterson]

What kind of car did you have where the "ABS got it wrong?" What does "get it wrong mean? Do you mean there was a low traction condition where ABS activated when you would have preferred to skid across the road instead because "you got this?" More likely than not, if you are in a situation where ABS is activating, you already surpassed the limits of the vehicle in the current conditions and you did it as a human being.

Picture a road as seen from the side, where the contour drops fairly abruptly. Uneven panels on a concrete highway is a good example, and there is a very similar situation on a road that I commonly use. In a little more detail, it's pretty close to this road's entrance to a fairly busy 4-lane divided state highway, so getting stopped is of high priority.

What can happen is that as the road drops out from underneath the tires, the wheels can lock momentarily and be released by the ABS even at low speeds. It takes extra time (and extra distance) for the ABS to figure out that it needs to re-apply the brakes once they've regained full weight on them and are rolling once again. I'm not making any judgments as to whether you should ever intentionally be driving that hard, only that this particular possibility exists. I can understand if you've never had the experience that it probably wouldn't occur to you that it even could.

More well known is the snow/soft dirt situation where pushing up a dam of the loose stuff is better than rolling over it.

A vehicle can have rain sensors, heat sensors, long and short distance radar, blind spot monitors, parking sensors, rear impact prediction sensors, etc etc etc. ABS has improved immensely since the 90s or early 2000's.

Can have and does have are two different things. All the sensors in the world won't ensure that a system calibrated for dry pavement will do a good enough job in the wet.

All of the fully automatic braking systems that I am aware of are only active when cruise control is active, otherwise is is a passive warning and braking assist feature in which the warning beep can be turned off at will. Are you using cruise control on the race track? It sounds like you are under some impression that these systems are waiting with bated breath in some aggressive anticipatory state to take control from you and run you off the road, which is pretty hilarious. Again, if YOU steer and YOU brake your own car, the system will never activate anyways.

If these things are only on when cruise control is active, I can relax a bit (I don't ever use CC even on longer trips). What I was getting at was if a system that can autonomously activate the brakes was something you could not deactivate, it could very well do something inappropriate. Chances are you won't be braking at 1g for a high-g turn on the street . . . but that doesn't eliminate the possibility that such a situation could arise.


I'm sure that I could find some information on this through the SAE bookstore, but it's difficult for me to justify their prices for given that it's not something I even have a day job to use it in. I'm afraid that I'll never be the stereotypical Mustang enthusiast (loud exhaust, appearance-oriented, with maybe a little drag racing thrown in for variety). Not to put down anybody for whom those are the important things, just noting that that's not me. I'd rather do preparation for track time than waxing anyway.


Norm

 

[astolt12]

Yes the system sometimes throws a fault when rounding a corner and there are trees, barricades, whatnot on the outside. It doesn't apply the brakes but that system has been awesome for me.

Bailed me out driving into the sun and someone darted out in front of me a few cars up. I knew there was a stop coming but with the car now infront of me my distance to stop was shortened. Light went off, clutch went in and I put the brakes on.

With cruise control on its even better. Set it in 6th gear at 80MPH and held the left lane for tank after tank of fuel. Some idiot whips in the car slows down, idiot leaves, car speeds up.

Only time the driver needs to intervene is when traffic stops or a gear shift is needed.

 

[awmustang]

All of the fully automatic braking systems that I am aware of are only active when cruise control is active, otherwise is is a passive warning and braking assist feature in which the warning beep can be turned off at will. Are you using cruise control on the race track? It sounds like you are under some impression that these systems are waiting with bated breath in some aggressive anticipatory state to take control from you and run you off the road, which is pretty hilarious. Again, if YOU steer and YOU brake your own car, the system will never activate anyways.

The system Ford has out now, this is the case. Other manufacturers have introduced system that are always active and can activate the brakes at any time without the cruise being on. Ford's new system will do this as well because the safety rating agencies are giving higher ratings to cars with these systems.

To answer a few others posts:

You're assuming a bit too much here. I'm not the guy in the current TV advertisement who is 'saved' from hitting a parked car as he was about to drop his daughter off at school and was momentarily distracted.

There is a difference, as I can (and do when the situation arises) gauge my braking according to both what I'm trying to not hit in front of me and what I'm trying to not let hit me from behind. Sort of "rubberbanding" the overall distance between the guy ahead and the guy behind. It's a useful skill to have, and not something that these systems are described as having. Not yet, at least.

My point was that by the time these systems activate there is no room for rubber banding. When they activate, you only have room to come to a stop before hitting the car in front of you with 100% pedal pressure. If you are actively hitting the brakes and doing that rubber banding you speak of, this system will never activate.

So educate me. Start by explaining whether such a system can determine road conditions (i.e. the amount of grip that it has to work with, and from that how early it must activate) in real time. If it only assumes some fixed amount of grip - as suggested by the vehicle performances in awmustang's video link - then it's at best a damage mitigation feature. But you and I both know that people will believe (or be led to believe) that it's a crash avoidance thing - which is a whole 'nother level . . . and a predictable if unintended consequence.

I'm quite certain these systems can't evaluate road conditions. It would appear that they are calibrated for dry roads. However, if you are approaching a car at such a speed and are within a significantly close distance that this activates while you are on a slippery road then you are a terrible driver and I don't think anyone has sold these systems as replacements for terrible driving.

I, too, am probably just being paranoid but there have been multiple situations where I have sped up but entered the shoulder or other lane to avoid being rear-ended. I would also question if there has been enough calibration of the system that it is not able to be fooled by something as well. I am an alert and conscious driver, and have a track record of doing things in a way that keeps me out of harms way. Until there is a proven track record here, I am with Norm. Would rather let my skill and experience do the work as opposed to the tech.

It is my understanding that these systems only activate when the driver is doing nothing at all. If you are actively steering or braking, the system is supposed to assume the driver has the situation in hand and won't activate. Time will tell if that actually happens, but that's the design.

 

[Rickycardo]

Yes, but the system is really annoying when you intend to run down your daughter's boyfriend.
DADD - Dads against daughters dating. Shoot the first one and word will spread.

 

[Higgs Boson]

I think we can all come up with one off situations for pretty much any topic.....generally, X breed of dog is gentle and great for kids...."oh yeah, well I know one of those in 1987 that bit a guy that was poking it with a stick so I can't be around those dogs."

that's kind of what this conversation is.

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