ADM and Tesla

[Spa2k]

Can someone put one thread about ADM, an "ADM-Bitch-thread" and just bury it somewhere the rest of us don't have to see it. And maybe put a few select posters there so that's the only thread they see. Like a forum purgatory.

ADM is annoying and uncontrollable, but you guys have given every thread ADM cancer.

I did that the third day after I joined M6G (http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22595), because I was so tired of the negativity and the incessant ADM whining - but the Anti-ADM Activists have decided to hijack most of the threads on other, nonrelated topics here to spread their fertilizer all over the place. It's a free country, I guess, even if you're just trolling or have no real interest in, or capability to buy, a GT350 and want to try to ruin the experience of the people who have one on order.

And for the record, don't think prices will suddenly drop if manufacturers adopt the direct-sale model. Probably just the opposite will happen. Tesla, for example, clears a 25% profit on every vehicle it sells; in reality, you might pay less at a franchised Tesla dealership if you could negotiate the price there.

Finally, Tesla did get a pile of government (your) money - $465 million from the U.S. Department of Energy in 2009 at a rate much lower than an investment-grade loan should have been. By making a below-market loan like that (even though it was paid off early), we got no return on that investment, which should have returned at least $1 billion to taxpayers if it had been negotiated properly. And guess what, right now Tesla is in the tank again and likely is going to have to hold another big stock sale just to cover operating expenses. :tsk:

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[derpington]

Not a direct bailout but significant tax credit i.e. taxpayer money to subsidize purchase, something you ain't gonna get for a GT 350.

So you are saying the government giving tax breaks to individuals making purchases of a type of good is a bailout? The money doesn't go to Tesla. Also, tax credit isn't really using taxpayer money to subsidize a purchase. Instead, it allows taxpayers to pay less in taxes if they've made certain types of purchases (such as a Ford all electric Focus or a Tesla). Do you believe the government is bailing out parents by providing a tax credit for having children (which they currently do)?

 

[derpington]

Finally, Tesla did get a pile of government (your) money - $465 million from the U.S. Department of Energy in 2009 at a rate much lower than an investment-grade loan should have been. By making a below-market loan like that (even though it was paid off early), we got no return on that investment, which should have returned at least $1 billion to taxpayers if it had been negotiated properly. And guess what, right now Tesla is in the tank again and likely is going to have to hold another big stock sale just to cover operating expenses. :tsk:

And Ford got a $5.9 billion dollar loan at the same time, which they have also paid back with interest (as had Tesla). It is incorrect the say that the government got no return on its investment, as not only was interest paid, an enormous amount of income and social security tax was not lost through jobs that would have been cut if these loans were not offered (and all the resultant economic turmoil).

 

[CANTWN4LSN]

So you are saying the government giving tax breaks to individuals making purchases of a type of good is a bailout? The money doesn't go to Tesla. Also, tax credit isn't really using taxpayer money to subsidize a purchase. Instead, it allows taxpayers to pay less in taxes if they've made certain types of purchases (such as a Ford all electric Focus or a Tesla). Do you believe the government is bailing out parents by providing a tax credit for having children (which they currently do)?

Yes to both. Since money doesn't grow on trees, if one person does not pay federal taxes on income that they normally would, some one else must. If a company produces a product said person is unable to purchase because it costs too much but can purchase it if the price to them is artificially lowered by a tax credit, some one else is making up the difference because the company is still receiving its full price. This is corporate welfare, subsidization, an indirect bailout or whatever term you wish to use. It is not a free market as it favors certain products over others at taxpayer expense. You may approve of social engineering in this fashion, but don't be mistaken as to what is happening.

 

[SpursFan]

Good reading fellas. After owning 5 mustangs including a real GT350 calling me a rookie only raises the question do you know who your audience is?

The point raised is there are plenty of people trying to buy this car some even willing to pay a premium but due to the dealer/manufacturer relationship people are paying premiums.

 

[DrumReaper]

No, they did not get bailed out any more than Ford did.

Wrong sir...

http://www.quora.com/Was-it-legal-f...o-no-assets-and-also-takes-no-equity-in-Tesla

Tesla has no right to charge an ADM to Americans... They already got a loan from the American taxpayer.

 

[Teddy Dal]

I can't recall which publication I read this in, but Tesla is currently losing $4000 per Model S.

 

[Cruzinaround]

Elon Musk landed a financial backer in the 11th hour who funded him when his spaceX program was at risk of going under. He then turned around and made billions. He was not bailed out. He went after Govt. grants that were available to anyone who qualified just like FORD. And his green initiatives qualified for plenty. He in fact climbed out of the hole he was in....all on his own.

 

[Spa2k]

I can't recall which publication I read this in, but Tesla is currently losing $4000 per Model S.

That's only if you charge all of the expenses of all the Tesla companies - new battery development, battery factory under construction, Model S, Powerwall, etc. - against the revenue from the sales of the Model X. That would be a stretch on any spreadsheet.

 

[Hack]

I don't get the thing about Tesla. I have no interest at all in owning an electric car, especially at the current state of battery tech. It's funny, I can see some day in the future electric cars being better performers than gasoline, but some people like me still not wanting them. The gas engine is the most enjoyable part of a car!

Kind of like DCT vs. manual transmission - what performs better isn't always more fun.

 

[L8APEX]

Just wait until they hit the lots and offer MSRP. The worse thing they can say is "no." Keep trying until you find a dealer that will sell you one at MSRP. Ordering one for MSRP may be difficult at this stage...

 

[derpington]

Wrong sir...

http://www.quora.com/Was-it-legal-f...o-no-assets-and-also-takes-no-equity-in-Tesla

Tesla has no right to charge an ADM to Americans... They already got a loan from the American taxpayer.

Did you read that link? It says right in it that Tesla's loans were unrelated to TARP (i.e., the government bailout).

Also, it is impossible for Tesla to charge an ADM since they don't have dealers.

 

[cosmo]

I can't believe people somehow defend ADM, saying to expect it. What a joke. You're literally paying for nothing, and pissing away $5k+ to the dealer. Ford gets none of that. The guy you dealt with, who knows absolutely nothing about the car besides he can gouge the price, gets that cash. Not the company that designed it.

 

[thaext]

I can't believe people somehow defend ADM, saying to expect it. What a joke. You're literally paying for nothing, and pissing away $5k+ to the dealer. Ford gets none of that. The guy you dealt with, who knows absolutely nothing about the car besides he can gouge the price, gets that cash. Not the company that designed it.

Well spoken! If Ford had balls, they would do what Dodge is doing with the scumbag dealers who are jacking up the price on the hellcat, and not award any additional allocations to those dealers that are asking a ridiculous amount, thus having the car sit on the lot for a long long time.

Hell, if I was running Ford, I would revoke the certification of franchise to any dealer that jacks up the price of any car. Hell, If I ever owned a car dealer, I would be the number 1 dealer in the world, because I wouldn't ever do the shit that most dealers do.

 

[Spa2k]

Well spoken! If Ford had balls, they would do what Dodge is doing with the scumbag dealers who are jacking up the price on the hellcat, and not award any additional allocations to those dealers that are asking a ridiculous amount, thus having the car sit on the lot for a long long time.

The difference is that the supply of GT350s is limited and the supply of Hellcats no longer is limited. FCA doesn't care what the selling price of a Hellcat is - it cares that cars aren't getting sold. So, as long as a dealer doesn't have a Hellcat sitting on the lot (for any reason, including ADM), the dealer will qualify for his next allocation.

Hell, if I was running Ford, I would take revoke the certification of franchise to any dealer that jacks up the price of any car.

The dealers are all independent business people, and what Chrysler has done is as far as a manufacturer can go - especially since suppliers after a year finally have ramped up their production of Hellcat parts and FCA now can sell as many Hellcats as it can build.

You can read the official FCA statement on this topic here: http://blog.fcanorthamerica.com/2015/02/27/avoiding-hellcat-ordering-disappointment/.

Let us know when you get your not-for-profit dealership open.

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