Aces IV additive/octane enhancer

[BDMACH1]

That is really good news that you will be able to meet up with him. This may be best chance we have with Brian to come up with a viable solution. Really looking forward to your progress on this

I will do what I can to help! Hopefully driving down to Beefcakes and picking the car up this weekend. Still have some suspension stuff to do, but I will try and get with Brian and see what we all can come up with...

On another note I reached out to Dustin Whipple about the calibration and how it handles octane changes or knock resistance form tank to tank. It's been siad that the knock logic may have a long term learning strategy that needs time on a new octane gas for the sensitivity to b affected. Also I think Brian has said with ACES 100 miles need to be put on before it will have full affect. Well as far a Whipple calibration Dustin said there is no long term knock logic that would keep the system from reacting immediately to higher octane or knock resistance.

That's good news I guess. Now we don't have to speculate what the Whipple calibration is/isn't doing.

FYI....I am tuned with HP tuners by John Lund.


Bob

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[Hazmat SRT]

Whatever Brian comes up with for us here, it must do 2 things for people to continue to buy it. One is it has to increase the knock resistance by at least 3-5 points in my opinion, and 2 must be offered at the price of ACES IV. Brian sold us ACES IV knowing what we were running for engine Supercharger and boost levels. 10-12 psi is not unreasonable here, in fact some can run those Boost levels on 93 with little to no knock, so ACES only had to do a little bit to help. We weren't asking for a lot. ACES IV was sold advertising 102 octane, we aren't getting that and looks like we won't get that with ACES P either, but I'm not sure. So is this fair to us, no! Is Brian working towards a solution yes! I am happy about his continued efforts, but this solution needs to comment in a a price point we were sold ACES IV for all the reasons above.


Mine and the 2 others who are testing and Jamie are whipple house calibrations.

These are calibrations are developed by a Ford Engineer, the same one who does the Ford performance Supercharger Calibrations. The are based off the stock PCM and modified and tested by Whipple.

Whipple calibrations can only be changed by whipple, and they don't do that for individuals. The are however Maf load based fueling tables that basically controlling fueling very accurately through load vs rpm. More complex than that but I'm sure you already know this.

Dave, Jay and myself are not using fuel boosters, Jamie is.

I can see and log injector duty cycle, however the Whipple 72lb injectors would not be anywhere near maxed at out power levels for sure. We are lol just under or near the 700 whp range and even the stock 56lb injectors don't max at that power level, but come close to the 90%.

My lambda was .75 ish during my testing and never full short not went to rich.

I also reviewed Dave and Jays runs and their Lambdas were the same.

Hi Shawn,

Thanks for getting back to me on this. Based on the info you've provided I can make the following assumptions:

- AF:R is staying right around 11:1 at .75 lambda (pretty fat and safe)
- Injector duty cycle is in a good place
- Adjustment of the tune isn't possible using Whipple's tune
- With the canned tune, 93 was working well with little to no knock
- Aces was added to provide either more timing advance or to handle a boost increase (a bit more headroom to grow)

I would point to fuel supply (i.e. from the pump) but after reading through other posts and looking at how many of you are supporting big power without knock I can rule that out.

Since I can't see Whipple's fuel and timing curves I'm not sure if it's constantly working to advance timing (irrespective of boost) until it sees knock and then catching knock and backing down. This is where the advantage of a custom dyno tune can lock in the maps. At least that's how it works for a speed density (MAP) system. I've always perceived MAF tuning as easier but I haven't done it on more modern cars like yours so I can't speak to the complexity.

I can vouch for the fact that the PCM does take time to adjust to Aces. I'm glad to hear that Bob will be meeting with Brian to discuss what many of you are seeing and to work towards a solution.

Again, thanks for the info. I want to see all of you get an effective solution that's cost effective. I'm encouraged by the amount of patience and understanding everyone is showing. In truth, I'm used to people acting like idiots as soon as something doesn't work right. The level of maturity here is very refreshing.

I'll stay in touch with the thread and look forward to hearing Bob's feedback.

Oh and thanks to everyone for being polite to the token Mopar guy on your forum.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Roh92cp]

Hi Shawn,

Thanks for getting back to me on this. Based on the info you've provided I can make the following assumptions:

- AF:R is staying right around 11:1 at .75 lambda (pretty fat and safe)
- Injector duty cycle is in a good place
- Adjustment of the tune isn't possible using Whipple's tune
- With the canned tune, 93 was working well with little to no knock
- Aces was added to provide either more timing advance or to handle a boost increase (a bit more headroom to grow)

I would point to fuel supply (i.e. from the pump) but after reading through other posts and looking at how many of you are supporting big power without knock I can rule that out.

Since I can't see Whipple's fuel and timing curves I'm not sure if it's constantly working to advance timing (irrespective of boost) until it sees knock and then catching knock and backing down. This is where the advantage of a custom dyno tune can lock in the maps. At least that's how it works for a speed density (MAP) system. I've always perceived MAF tuning as easier but I haven't done it on more modern cars like yours so I can't speak to the complexity.

I can vouch for the fact that the PCM does take time to adjust to Aces. I'm glad to hear that Bob will be meeting with Brian to discuss what many of you are seeing and to work towards a solution.

Again, thanks for the info. I want to see all of you get an effective solution that's cost effective. I'm encouraged by the amount of patience and understanding everyone is showing. In truth, I'm used to people acting like idiots as soon as something doesn't work right. The level of maturity here is very refreshing.

I'll stay in touch with the thread and look forward to hearing Bob's feedback.

Oh and thanks to everyone for being polite to the token Mopar guy on your forum.

Cheers,

Andy

Cheers back Mopar man, all welcome here. Just to clarify with the Whipple calibration. The knock logic works to always optimize power. So like you mentioned it does constantly push to slight knock max power than pull back. It's always active and pushing and pulling timing via knock sensors for best power.

 

[Hazmat SRT]

Cheers back Mopar man, all welcome here. Just to clarify with the Whipple calibration. The knock logic works to always optimize power. So like you mentioned it does constantly push to slight knock max power than pull back. It's always active and pushing and pulling timing via knock sensors for best power.

Hey Shawn,

Thanks for that info. This leads me to ask at what point knock detection turns into knock retard. For example, how many counts of knock constitute one degree of timing retard (not always an easy question to answer).

Is there an acceptable level of knock that you guys would ignore, or are you always looking for zero knock or a slight negative which would indicate timing advance?

This makes me wonder if it's the tune that does that regarding knock logic or if it's a function of the MAF constantly adjusting to airflow, IAT, voltage, etc. or if it's a combination of both.

Sorry. I know I ask WAY too many questions some of which are tough to answer.

Cheers.

Andy

 

[Bartly]

....
- With the canned tune, 93 was working well with little to no knock
....

Don't forget us guys who are boosted and only have access to 91 octane, with 3-4 even 6 degrees sometimes of registered + knock on the knock sensors at WOT. Would love to see something that could tame that back down. When I mixed product that had MMT in it and took the gas up to 95 octane (per the mixing chart) Knock was most always zero and finally started to see negative knock values so it began adding timing on those WOT runs.

Just want to be on the wish list if there is one.

Thanks.

 

[Hazmat SRT]

Thought I'd offer some respect for the Whipple. We love these in the Mopar community as well. One of our finest Hemi tuning shops is Arrington in Virginia. Here's a quick vid of a forged 392 with a 2.9. Very similar to what you guys are seeing for power:

[ame]

Enjoy.

 

[Hazmat SRT]

Don't forget us guys who are boosted and only have access to 91 octane, with 3-4 even 6 degrees sometimes of registered + knock on the knock sensors at WOT. Would love to see something that could tame that back down. When I mixed product that had MMT in it and took the gas up to 95 octane (per the mixing chart) Knock was most always zero and finally started to see negative knock values so it began adding timing on those WOT runs.

Just want to be on the wish list if there is one.

Thanks.

This is where I'm a bit baffled that Aces hasn't worked for you guys. At the correct mixing ratio (1oz per 6 gallons) you should get the same flame speed as 91 with the knock resistance of 100. I just don't get it.

I'm sure Brian is scratching his chin too.

Regardless, we'll get it figured out.

 

[Roh92cp]

Hey Shawn,

Thanks for that info. This leads me to ask at what point knock detection turns into knock retard. For example, how many counts of knock constitute one degree of timing retard (not always an easy question to answer).

Is there an acceptable level of knock that you guys would ignore, or are you always looking for zero knock or a slight negative which would indicate timing advance?

This makes me wonder if it's the tune that does that regarding knock logic or if it's a function of the MAF constantly adjusting to airflow, IAT, voltage, etc. or if it's a combination of both.

Sorry. I know I ask WAY too many questions some of which are tough to answer.

Cheers.

Andy

A recent conversation with Whipple about an exceptanle working positive knock number is 2 degrees positive knock at times. This is great to learn and know how the knock logic works and what's going on here, as it helps see how it all comes together. However the issue is ACES didn't change the positive knock count at all, but going from 91 to 93 and 100 octane did change the knock counts. The knock logic works and responds very well to different octane fuels, less knock and less total timing was pulled with each fuel. 100 octane produced 0 knock, I imagine at some point the knockers will not continue to push to slight knock once a set max is achieved.

I see this as very simple test. ACES should be able to reduce knock counts by 2 or 3 knock points for sure. Just going from 91 to 93 fuel reduces knock from 1-3 counts.

 

[Hazmat SRT]

A recent conversation with Whipple about an exceptanle working positive knock number is 2 degrees positive knock at times. This is great to learn and know how the knock logic works and what's going on here, as it helps see how it all comes together. However the issue is ACES didn't change the positive knock count at all, but going from 91 to 93 and 100 octane did change the knock counts. The knock logic works and responds very well to different octane fuels, less knock and less total timing was pulled with each fuel. 100 octane produced 0 knock, I imagine at some point the knockers will not continue to push to slight knock once a set max is achieved.

I see this as very simple test. ACES should be able to reduce knock counts by 2 or 3 knock points for sure. Just going from 91 to 93 fuel reduces knock from 1-3 counts.

Understood and that makes sense. I also agree that if Aces can mimic 100 octane effect that logic would dictate that it should give you zero knock in the same way as 100 octane fuel.

Staying tuned to see what Brian comes up with (fingers crossed).

 

[Roh92cp]

Understood and that makes sense. I also agree that if Aces can mimic 100 octane effect that logic would dictate that it should give you zero knock in the same way as 100 octane fuel.

Staying tuned to see what Brian comes up with (fingers crossed).

From what I understand from Brian about ACES is that it does not actually raise the octane level when added to fuel. In other words if it was added to 93 octane fuel at 2 oz per 6 gallons and then sent to a lab for testing it would not show an octane increase. ACES is made to reduce knock through lubrication cooling and other things correct.

 

[Hazmat SRT]

From what I understand from Brian about ACES is that it does not actually raise the octane level when added to fuel. In other words if it was added to 93 octane fuel at 2 oz per 6 gallons and then sent to a lab for testing it would not show an octane increase. ACES is made to reduce knock through lubrication cooling and other things correct.

That's correct. If it raised the actual octane, the flame speed would slow. Aces creates an "octane effect" by increasing knock and pre-ignition resistance equivalent to 9 octane above the grade of fuel it's blended with when used in the correct ratio.

 

[Roh92cp]

I think I didn't explain your question above on knock counts as it pertains to spark advance. Here are a couple snap shots of my NGauge recorded under WOT test run. The knocker bottom right of course displays - when it's adding timing and without a symbol it's positive meaning knock and pulling timing. Right above is the spark advance which is nearly 1 to 1 with the knocker. When the knocker is at 0 spark advance is 18, so anything displayed plus or minus on the knocker just gets added or subtracted from 18. For the most part this logic is consistent, however there are tables being used of course to control timing that may come into play at times.

Here you can see almost 3 degrees negative knock adds 3 to base of 18 on the spark advance.

 

[Hazmat SRT]

I think I didn't explain your question above on knock counts as it pertains to spark advance. Here are a couple snap shots of my NGauge recorded under WOT test run. The knocker bottom right of course displays - when it's adding timing and without a symbol it's positive meaning knock and pulling timing. Right above is the spark advance which is nearly 1 to 1 with the knocker. When the knocker is at 0 spark advance is 18, so anything displayed plus or minus on the knocker just gets added or subtracted from 18. For the most part this logic is consistent, however there are tables being used of course to control timing that may come into play at times.

Here you can see almost 3 degrees negative knock adds 3 to base of 18 on the spark advance.

A picture IS worth 1000 words. I can see the direct correlation now. I'm a little miffed that we didn't have cool stuff like that to look at when I was tuning. The best we could hope for was a wideband O2!

Thanks Shawn. That's a big help.

 

[Hazmat SRT]

From what I understand from Brian about ACES is that it does not actually raise the octane level when added to fuel. In other words if it was added to 93 octane fuel at 2 oz per 6 gallons and then sent to a lab for testing it would not show an octane increase. ACES is made to reduce knock through lubrication cooling and other things correct.

I wanted to give you more information on this so I found a thread on Chargerforums where Brian gives an explanation about fuel in a detailed summary. It's a long read but I think you'll find it helpful:

I have been watching all the questions and answers on gasoline for our cars.

Many people on this forum are looking for more power without spending a lot more for fuel.

Before we can understand why ACES IV is important in your fuel, an appropriate understanding of "a few things" which determine what gives power in an engine :

We have to begin by understanding that all the horsepower our engines are ever going to produce are stored in the fuel that you use to produce it. All other components including intakes, cams, valves, compression ratios, computer tunes etc all are dependent on appropriate fuel(and lubrication).

It’s really that simple. The specific energy content of the air/fuel mixture and the length it burns is the key.

The more fuel energy your engine can EFFICIENTLY burn (read that utilize), the more power it will produce per given fuel charge. This is correct regardless of whether you are normally aspirated, turbocharged, or supercharged.

However, a lot of factors influence this fuel energy:

Gross volume, air/fuel ratio, density of the fuel mixture, completeness of vaporization as opposed to atomization, initial flame speed and WHERE the burn originates and how it swirls.

You’ll notice I didn’t mention the octane rating initially. The reason is that in and of itself, octane rating does nothing to improve power output!

All octane rating does is measure the ability of a fuel to resist pre-ignition (read that as detonation) in a higher compression engine.

Higher octane fuels allow the use of higher compression ratios, and THAT does produce more power. This is where the Diablo picks up some power because the engine can be tuned much closer to the compression ratio and it's utilization factor. ACES IV can advance the power even more using a Diablo as the fuel will reach longer power peaks. While an octane rating does influence flame speed, so do other factors.

Two of these other factors are:

Vaporization...this is just what it sounds like: how well is the fuel/air mixture dispersed at the point of ignition. (As ACES IV promotes molecular fuel balancing, a much more vaporized dispersed pattern emerges) Incompletely atomized fuel burns more slowly and mostly will not burn completely. (This is another the reason for 2 plugs in the Hemi)

It doesn’t do you any good if it isn’t completely consumed by the time the exhaust port opens.....(this is why ACES IV releases oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen at exactly peak heat release for a much more complete burn before the exhaust stroke commenses.)

The better job you can do in getting a uniform dispersion of fuel in the incoming air, the more completely it will burn. This is also where ACES IV promotes ignition from the inside out which performs better than an outside in configuration.

Many people try to use oil based fuel additives to accomplish a better burn because they believe that it will reduce surface tension of gasoline, unfortunately petroleum oils commonly used in most all fuel additives have relatively high surface tension in solution with gasoline and so it actually inhibits the vaporization process hampering combustion. (Typically this is why people call most fuel additives "snake oil".)

Oil is the operative word here and why. Remember that if it is distilled out of crude oil and not included in either gasoline, diesel fuel, or jet kerosine, then it isn't good for the fuels in general and should not be added.

Gasoline, diesel fuel, and jet kerosine are the most expensive components and any refinery would love to make full barrels of these three with nothing left over. If the item is distilled out then it is not good for any of them. However, there are bottles of "petroleum distillate" additives available to put in fuels because essentially they have to get rid of them somewhere!!

Flame speed is also pretty self-explanatory, but there are two sides to this coin. On one hand, the faster the fuel/air mixture burns, the higher expanding gas pressure will be and the longer the pressure wave will have to work on the piston before the exhaust port opens.

However, since the ignition system is timed to fire before the piston reaches top-dead-center, some of that gas pressure will actually work AGAINST the piston as it completes the compression stroke. It is called “knock" in your regular car, but it's really pre-ignition and it can be really destructive.

It can literally chew the top of a piston away a little bit at a time. In less then a minute, at the RPMs that most street/strip engines run the top of the piston is gone and youre done. In extreme cases, pre-ignition can break pistons, and the damage that it can do is expensive.

The density of the fuel/air mixture is the subject of a great deal of interest throughout the racing world. The cooler the charge of fuel and air going into the engine, the denser it will be. And the denser it is, the more potential energy there is in each incoming charge. Introducing more available oxygen and hydrogen with the fuel creates more power yet in the given space.

Remember that all the horsepower you’re going to get is stored in that fuel and air (especially with ACES IV), so the denser a charge you can get into the engine, the better. Superchargers and turbochargers increase the charge density mechanically by compressing it, but that generates a lot of heat in the mixture before it ever gets into the cylinder.

This is why lubricity is so important in post combustion to exhaust phase. It creates even more heat if nitrous oxide is used as an accelerant. (ACES IV makes nitrous about 7% more powerful)

With ACES IV, lengthing the flame front and retarding peak heat release will cause the fuel to resist pre-detonation and allow you to lean the engine out more without damage. The heat reactive lubricity produced by the ACES IV will reduce ring and bore wear by some 600% while reducing stem and guide wear by some 360%.

Use of ACES IV in 87 Octane fuel has an ignition improver to help increase 87 up to a 96 Octane effect (for low performance applications only, and not for high performance R/T and SRT8 use) smoother running and more mpg and less heat are produced.

Using it in 89 octane (for R/T and stock SRT8 applications) produces up to 98 Octane effect, and in 93 Octane fuel, effects of up to 102 Octane can be attained. Any base fuel, when treated, will help eliminate cylinder detonation and produce added power.

I use 89 Shell or Marathon fuels and ACES IV at 1 oz per 6 gallons to use the 98 octane effect with smooth power and no detonation in HP applications.

This is what we used when we went to Akron Horsepower along with the 12.5w40 QuantumBlue oils. We picked up 19 hp and 31 ft lbs of torque doing our HP Gold Coolant, the engine oil and ACES IV.

 

[Roh92cp]

That above was with VP100 and 3.5" pulley. This picture below is with 93 and ACES with 3.5" pulley. I realize the rpm and Boost are not equal but this illustrates what's going on.

Almost 5 degrees positive knock and 5 subtracted from the base 18.

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