:lol:well it is known that Garbage Motors send out ringer cars for testing.
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on d bit
Well-Known Member
One mag did a spread with the GTR the 991t and the Z28. Both the GTR and 991T beat the Z28 around a track that was cold and wet. They even went first. The Z28 lost when it had the better track!
After tuning and letting the track dry and heat up, the Z28 did a better lap.
GM ran the Z28 on a closed course on the Ring in early Sept and could not beat the ZL1 time. They had to come back a month to 6 weeks later in Oct to try to run a better time. We all know how this ended up. How did GM gain 4 seconds on a slower track?
Do we even want to mention the GTR's best time on the Ring?:headbonk:
Wow. We have seroius Gran Turismo player here!
Really WTF is with GT-R fanboys? Everytime you say something is better than Porsche or GT-R there is a crowd talking about numbers, weight, Nurburgring, how great European/Japanese motorisation is... Life is not a sheet of paper, you don't want to spend your whole life in the tent near Nurburgring neither. I still preffer F-type/SRT Viper over 911/GT-R. Life is complicated, thigns are getting different with the time if you're expecting simple answers like "911/GT-R is the best!" you're lacking of some brain cells.
Really WTF is with GT-R fanboys? Everytime you say something is better than Porsche or GT-R there is a crowd talking about numbers, weight, Nurburgring, how great European/Japanese motorisation is... Life is not a sheet of paper, you don't want to spend your whole life in the tent near Nurburgring neither. I still preffer F-type/SRT Viper over 911/GT-R. Life is complicated, thigns are getting different with the time if you're expecting simple answers like "911/GT-R is the best!" you're lacking of some brain cells.
WestRace
Well-Known Member
Guys, you have to think logically in engineering term. You don't want to let your fanboism clouding your judgement. There is really no faster or slower cars in the absolute. But there are cars that are engineered to be faster at a given price point. There is no God given right to a 911 or GTR or Mustang or Camaro to be fast or slow. A Camaro can be faster than a 911 if GM would be willing to spend resources on it to make it faster. You guys somehow think the Camaro was born to be slow like some type of living animal. All cars are just a piece of metal. You can make whatever of out it you want.
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w3rkn
Well-Known Member
Yes, & that starts on the engineering board. Inherent design philosophies stand out.
The Z28 is nothing special... just a GM exec's bucket list of how kewl a car they can make with parts.
Trackaholic
Well-Known Member
All cars are made with "parts" and GM chose very good parts for the Z28. They took one of their best ever naturally aspirated engines, their best ever brakes, their best ever shocks, their best ever tires, and added as much aero help as was feasible. Then tuned the chassis for neutral handling and balance.
While I am not thrilled with the price of the Z28 or its weight, all reviews have been extremely positive. It will be interesting to see if that initial impression remains after longer drives, of course. But it does seem like a pretty special car, and is beginning to make me a fan.
Consider the ZL1/GT500 debtate. As shown in that spreadsheet, the GT500 wins most benchmarks, yet the drivers preferred the ZL1 over the GT500 4-0. It was a blowout in terms of preference. However I do remember Chris Harris preferring the bonkers behavior of the GT500 over the more refined ZL1. So maybe its 4-1. Now consider that the Z28 is better than the ZL1 in every aspect but raw power, and it isn't surprising that it will be a great car as well.
The big question will be how well Ford can respond. We know the GT350 will be on a lighter platform than the Z28, and we know it will have at least the option for carbon ceramic brakes. But what will the suspension tuning or shock quality be like? How about the transmission or thermal management? Ford can definitely deliver when they want to (see the GT40 for example), but GM has also shown they can tune a car with the best (C7, Camaro 1LE, Z28, ZL1, CTS-V, AST). In fact, GM has done a much better job lately with the RWD, high powered vehicles. Ford will definitely have their work cut out for them.
Either way, it's a great time to be a pony/muscle car fan.
-T
S550Boss
Well-Known Member
It's very clear that Head2Head got it's brownie points with GM for making this video. This is how this business is run... when a new car is put out, and somebody scores a test vehicle, it had damn well better win everything or there won't be any more test vehicles released so easily. And the writeup (or video) had better be darned good as well.
A more realistic test would be after all the hype has died down for the Z28, and it'd be done with one supplied by a dealer instead of a press fleet.
We'll see this in just a few months for the Mustang - it will appear to be the "second coming" for the first 6 or 8 months in the press reviews, then eventually more realistic tests will be done along with comparison tests. Neither of which will be against a Z28 or GT-R.
And, BTW, I've had the ZL1 and GT500 head-to-head on a racetrack. It's close, but the Camaro's suspension is better and more than makes up the HP difference when it's not just a straight line. Magnetoreological shocks are just fantastic and there is no reasons why Ford couldn't use them too. Yes, GM's subsidiary invented them, but then sold them to a Chinese company and now they are OEMd in a huge variety of vehicles. They are worth every cent... I'd gladly pay whatever it took to get them. And I've driven cars with them on the track and on the autocross... these are shocks that do it all, and you can live with them in real world driving, too.
A more realistic test would be after all the hype has died down for the Z28, and it'd be done with one supplied by a dealer instead of a press fleet.
We'll see this in just a few months for the Mustang - it will appear to be the "second coming" for the first 6 or 8 months in the press reviews, then eventually more realistic tests will be done along with comparison tests. Neither of which will be against a Z28 or GT-R.
And, BTW, I've had the ZL1 and GT500 head-to-head on a racetrack. It's close, but the Camaro's suspension is better and more than makes up the HP difference when it's not just a straight line. Magnetoreological shocks are just fantastic and there is no reasons why Ford couldn't use them too. Yes, GM's subsidiary invented them, but then sold them to a Chinese company and now they are OEMd in a huge variety of vehicles. They are worth every cent... I'd gladly pay whatever it took to get them. And I've driven cars with them on the track and on the autocross... these are shocks that do it all, and you can live with them in real world driving, too.
Trackaholic
Well-Known Member
In general I agree on all points. However, there are a couple of exceptions. One is MT's review of the Lambo Huracan. They try mightily to finish on a high note, but there are definite areas that seem to need more polish on that car. Also the Porsche 918 review was interesting. Very high praise for practically everything, except for the behavior at the track, where you basically need to perform a "recharge lap" in between each hot lap. Seems like McLaren did it right with the P1.
In any event, there is very often a reduction in positivity between an initial review and a follow-up directly against the competiion. Will be interesting to see how the Z28 fares in that regard. The C7 seems to have done very well over the last year, as has the Camaro 1LE, so maybe the Z28 will continue to hold its own.
And I'd be very happy with MR shocks in the Stang, but if Ford doesn't go that route, they will hopefully spend the money for some good ones on the SVT version (similar to how the Raptor gets some great units).
-T
S550Boss
Well-Known Member
Yes I'm also scratching my head on that Hurican review. But beggers (me) can't be choosers so I'd happily take one anyway ;-) I recently met Valentino Balboni so now I am dreaming of a Lambo.
Yup, bad news on the 918... sounds pretty useless for a track-oriented hobbyist like ourselves. Given this liability, I can't see the validity of the 918 - at least for track use. I had a friend with a P85 Tesla that recently reported the same thing, except it required a complete stop (or at least a cool-down lap that was so slow that you'd be black-flagged). It handled fabulously for 1 lap, then got too hot to continue (and dialed home to Tesla HQ itself to report it's use/abuse - and Tesla immediately called the owner back). Nevertheless, this type of technology development has to start somewhere, so when the technology filters down to the rest of us one day in the future then hopefully problems like this will be evolved past. One thing I've been wanting to do is to take a mild assistive-type hybrid like in the Q50 on the track and see if the extra ~30 horses it provides are of any use (and the Q50's electric hybrid tech is old tech by now, it was originally developed and shown to the press in a 2008 G35, then offered only in the M37 for a few years. It hasn't changed appreciably in the new Q50). That's the kind of hybrid tech that could come down to a Mustang someday. Ford has modelled an experimental EcoBoost 4 cylinder with this as a "what if" to produce the necessary power for a super high-mileage F-150 and if that ever sees the light of day far far in the future (I think it's inevitable) then the Mustang will get it too. On paper, it'd probably (guess) take our EcoBoost 2.3 torque and HP from ~300 to a much as 350, which sounds like a great deal.
I suspect the upcoming SVT will get the same adjustable Bilstein shocks as the current GT500. That's a low-tech low-cost approach... it works ok on the GT500 but it's nowhere near a match for what MR shocks can do. Ford has a great partnership and experience with Bilstein, but there is no match capability-wise.
I want to see two high-cost options offered on an SVT-type Mustang in the future: MR shocks, and a torque-proportioning rear differential. Both are off-the-shelf technology, but require extensive electronic control and tuning (and cost). Either, or especially both, would take the Mustang to heights far above the current ponycar expectations. MRs are currently offered by several other manufacturers with great results, especially in the ATS, CTS-V, Evo, S3, and the new M3/4.
What I don't want to see in the upcoming Mustang is the so-called "electronic diff", where the anti-lock system will selectively apply brakes to aid turning, and there is no mechanical diff. This is a cheap-to-implement poor-mans torque proportioning, and while it works well on the Focus ST (for example) on the street, it will eventually over-heat the brakes in track use. Fortunately this hasn't appeared yet in the new Mustang.
Yup, bad news on the 918... sounds pretty useless for a track-oriented hobbyist like ourselves. Given this liability, I can't see the validity of the 918 - at least for track use. I had a friend with a P85 Tesla that recently reported the same thing, except it required a complete stop (or at least a cool-down lap that was so slow that you'd be black-flagged). It handled fabulously for 1 lap, then got too hot to continue (and dialed home to Tesla HQ itself to report it's use/abuse - and Tesla immediately called the owner back). Nevertheless, this type of technology development has to start somewhere, so when the technology filters down to the rest of us one day in the future then hopefully problems like this will be evolved past. One thing I've been wanting to do is to take a mild assistive-type hybrid like in the Q50 on the track and see if the extra ~30 horses it provides are of any use (and the Q50's electric hybrid tech is old tech by now, it was originally developed and shown to the press in a 2008 G35, then offered only in the M37 for a few years. It hasn't changed appreciably in the new Q50). That's the kind of hybrid tech that could come down to a Mustang someday. Ford has modelled an experimental EcoBoost 4 cylinder with this as a "what if" to produce the necessary power for a super high-mileage F-150 and if that ever sees the light of day far far in the future (I think it's inevitable) then the Mustang will get it too. On paper, it'd probably (guess) take our EcoBoost 2.3 torque and HP from ~300 to a much as 350, which sounds like a great deal.
I suspect the upcoming SVT will get the same adjustable Bilstein shocks as the current GT500. That's a low-tech low-cost approach... it works ok on the GT500 but it's nowhere near a match for what MR shocks can do. Ford has a great partnership and experience with Bilstein, but there is no match capability-wise.
I want to see two high-cost options offered on an SVT-type Mustang in the future: MR shocks, and a torque-proportioning rear differential. Both are off-the-shelf technology, but require extensive electronic control and tuning (and cost). Either, or especially both, would take the Mustang to heights far above the current ponycar expectations. MRs are currently offered by several other manufacturers with great results, especially in the ATS, CTS-V, Evo, S3, and the new M3/4.
What I don't want to see in the upcoming Mustang is the so-called "electronic diff", where the anti-lock system will selectively apply brakes to aid turning, and there is no mechanical diff. This is a cheap-to-implement poor-mans torque proportioning, and while it works well on the Focus ST (for example) on the street, it will eventually over-heat the brakes in track use. Fortunately this hasn't appeared yet in the new Mustang.
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on d bit
Well-Known Member
Me a GTR fanboy? That is funny!:lol: I cant stand the GTR. I think they are ugly and overrated. They are fast though. I brought it up because westrace brought it up. GM tested against the GTR, with the Z28 running in better weather, and lost by a little. Then ran their car again in better conditions still with other slight adjustments and won by a little.
It is interesting to note that in a race with no rules, on a closed track on multiple days, and many, many laps the GTR just destroys the the Z28 on a hero lap scenario.
The Z28 is a good track car, the GTR and 991t are just better, considerably. Now if you were talking about the the Viper or C6Z06/ZR1 this conversation becomes very competitive against Nissan's and Porsche's best.
on d bit
Well-Known Member
Interesting. A thread was put forth a couple years ago in a track scenerio and the ZL1 was outclassed.
Van GT500 can tune and brake fluid vs Torq ZL1 with tune/pulley, wheels and tires at Homestead when both first came out.
http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...at-Homestead-6-30-2012&highlight=GT500+vs+ZL1
Vernichtung
Well-Known Member
While I've personally never had the opportunity to drive a Camaro ZL1, I've befriended several owners over the past couple years. The general consensus is that the car has a phenomenal suspension (obviously, with its Magnetic Ride Control) but is prone to debilitating heatsoak -- and quickly. Where Ford really did their homework on the 2013 GT500 to mitigate said power-robbing heatsoak, the ZL1, its undersized TVS supercharger, intercooler core and heat exchanger are no match for lap-after-lap abuse. Torq's ZL1 in the link above even featured one of Afco's dual-fan heat exchangers and it still severely heatsoaked. According to Van, his 2013 GT500 suffered no such issues.
In regards to the next SVT Mustang, I believe Ford's tuner group will ditch Bilstein's two-mode dampers for something more world class and expensive. Whether that mean they outfit the purported GT350 with MRC, I don't know. I feel that SVT have got a beast on their hands and they don't intend to lose to Camaro in any measure of performance this time around.
In regards to the next SVT Mustang, I believe Ford's tuner group will ditch Bilstein's two-mode dampers for something more world class and expensive. Whether that mean they outfit the purported GT350 with MRC, I don't know. I feel that SVT have got a beast on their hands and they don't intend to lose to Camaro in any measure of performance this time around.
Grimace427
Well-Known Member
The ZL-1's already undersized 1.9l Eaton blower is surprisingly larger than what comes on the new C7-Z06 which will have a 1.7l Eaton. I wonder what GM did to combat heat soak in that car.
It was one of our insider members who quite ambiguously mentioned the SVT will have very advanced suspension. I'd prefer steel for upgradeablility and cost purposes, but for those gotta-have-it folks and magazine tests it would be very cool to see Ford pull no punches.
WestRace
Well-Known Member
Most likely the GT350 will use some version of multimatic shocks. There was a thread way back about Multimatic shock became sponsor of Ford racing.
But since this shock is also being used by the Z28 so it must suck bad.
But since this shock is also being used by the Z28 so it must suck bad.
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