2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[thePill]

Here are some stock Boss 302's in random pics in different classes and organizations. It should also be known that Jessica Gauthier won the E Street Prepared Ladies Class Championship with her stock Boss 302 at the Tire Rack Solo Nationals in 2012. I think a 5.0 GT won it this year. You can see these amateur classes do not require a cage to compete. This is Mustang, this is competition...

This is the amateur element lost with the z28. These are OEM Boss 302's (One Laguna Seca I think) actually competing in sanctioned events. The Boss 302 was sanctioned by Ford Motor Company for use in multiple classes in the SCCA, FIA, NASA and IMSA. This is a mix of Solo and Heat competitions... This is where the z28 should be... In it's glory...


OMG!!! Look at this crazy road course car!!! What IS HE DOING?!?!?

When the z28 returns to the hands of drivers like these, then it will have returned to it's roots... Until then, it is very limited in action and high in price. There is still the possibility that Chevy is inflating the numbers just as they have with the ZL1.

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[trolls56]

Here are some stock Boss 302's in random pics in different classes and organizations. It should also be known that Jessica Gauthier won the E Street Prepared Ladies Class Championship with her stock Boss 302 at the Tire Rack Solo Nationals in 2012. I think a 5.0 GT won it this year. You can see these amateur classes do not require a cage to compete. This is Mustang, this is competition...

This is the amateur element lost with the z28. These are OEM Boss 302's (One Laguna Seca I think) actually competing in sanctioned events. The Boss 302 was sanctioned by Ford Motor Company for use in multiple classes in the SCCA, FIA, NASA and IMSA. This is a mix of Solo and Heat competitions... This is where the z28 should be... In it's glory...


OMG!!! Look at this crazy road course car!!! What IS HE DOING?!?!?

When the z28 returns to the hands of drivers like these, then it will have returned to it's roots... Until then, it is very limited in action and high in price. There is still the possibility that Chevy is inflating the numbers just as they have with the ZL1.

Haha I was told the z28 was worth every penny in another mustang forum. That is badass track built car. I said it wasn't a track car but a collectors car since you can't really race it and that when the Camaro guys seemed to be happy paying over 100k for it after tax and dealer markups. That most of them would be put straight into collections and never see any actual driving or racing. His come back was so you are saying the z28 is just like the Boss 302. That no one races the Bosses. Looks like just a few pics of people racing them that you just posted and they are actually pretty popular in drag racing too. Not to mention the z28 will cost twice as much as what the boss did.

 

[Trackaholic]

I do quite a bit of HDPE, and I believe that was the target for the Z28. There are plenty that will have their own (or rent a) transponder for time keeping, will use an app like Harry's Lap Timer, or have a GPS based system for getting lap times. Usually the distinction I've heard between "racing" and "tracking" isn't based on effort, speed, or (lack of) control, or whether a lap is timed or not, but rather the jockeying for position through corners. Most HDPE events require some level of etiquette to function well, with the lower level groups requiring a point-by (usually in straights) and then with higher level groups allowing full passing anywhere without a point-by, but also without risking either car during a pass. This factor makes is a significantly different event than a race, where track position is the only metric that matters, and defending a position and aggressively passing are both somewhat acceptable (within reasons of course).

In any case, while I do think I understand where Chevy was aiming with the Z28, and while I do feel they may have hit the target, I also feel that maybe the C7 Vette was a better placed shot. It is lighter, less expensive, (likely) has a lower CG and better weight balance, has the excellent Mag Shocks (in the Z51 package), is now available with the nice competition seats and will soon be available with an integrated data acquisition package.

Now, the de-contented yet more expensive car has been sold very well by Porsche over the years (Cayman R and Boxster Spyder come to mind as some recent versions), but I'm not sure GM can pull-off the same success with the Camaro because it is traditionally known as a value product. Porsche's cars are known as being very expensive from the start, so it is more in their nature to have a slightly better performing version that is even more expensive, and the fact that is loses some luxury is offset mostly by improved bragging rights (but there are some legitimate reasons as well). For the Camaro, as a value product the ultra-expensive-yet-decontented-model goes against its principles in a way, plus it is starting as a very heavy car and ending as a very heavy car (so the weight loss seems less useful), and because some of the new parts are "leftovers" from the C6 Vette there is this feeling that it should still be a great value. I do love the LS7 and I've heard very good things about the ceramic brakes, but even with those great features and all the development work, I'm not convinced that the price of the Z28 is right.

It may very well be worth that price given the work put into it, but with the Vette being less expensive and probably just about as fast and a much better daily driver I would be going for that car over the Z28.

I think I'd understand the car better if it were slighly less expensive than the ZL-1, similar to how the C6 Z06 Vette is slightly less expensive than the C6 ZR1.

-T

 

[Norm Peterson]

There is even a guy over there that has invented a new sport he calls "tracking". You know, an open track event for any and all ages and skill set as well as vehicles. No competing, no racing, no passing, no time... It is basically an open track tour... Apparently, this is what the z28 was actually made for. This was completely my fault as I was unaware of this new pass time and spoke before I knew about tracking.

While Zfatuated's "tracking" definition for the z28 may seem silly, it is in fact the most accurate marketing description placed on the 2014 z28 to date. It is the truth... The z28 is literally confined to such limited activities.

I've only been trying to get this point across since I joined here . . . call it a track tour if you will, as long as you understand that this "touring" is as hard and as fast as the driver cares to make it.

This coming weekend and the absence of winter weather permitting, I'll be at a track day where there will be separate sessions for paced laps only (I think one session only, highway speed, helmets not req'd), progressive paced laps (picking up the pace each session up to ~100 mph conditions permitting), instructed hot laps (up to 130-ish), and a session for those signed off to drive solo and for the instructors.

Now, we must convince buyers that not only is this cars purpose extremely limited, the content equipped on the car is worth the $75,000 and actually needed for such a casual activity.

Don't under-estimate here. Last time I was out - mid-November - there was a Porsche Carrera S running in the instructed hot laps group. Somewhat cautiously in the wet to drying conditions, I might add, else I'd have been pointing him by instead ;) . There's a guy with a ZL1 signed up for the 11th in instructed. That's two cars over $50k out of seven total just in my little corner of the track day world, in the off-season no less.

While the stated concept of track days is that it isn't about competition, anybody who refuses to admit the possibility of a little red mist clouding their normally good judgment is a fool. Downplaying the seriousness of running up to nearly the same speeds is worse than unwarranted.

It should also be known that Jessica Gauthier won the E Street Prepared Ladies Class Championship with her stock Boss 302 at the Tire Rack Solo Nationals in 2012. I think a 5.0 GT won it this year. You can see these amateur classes do not require a cage to compete. This is Mustang, this is competition...

Actually, Jessica came in 2nd to Amy Fair who was driving a street legal air-conditioned full weight 2011 GT. Terry placed 4th in ESP (open), with a time just barely out of the trophies in C-Prepared which is pretty much a full racing class for these cars that gets to use real racing slicks instead of "only DOT R-comps".

In 2013 this same car, still streetable and A/C'ed set NASA lap records in class at all or at least most venues the Fairs went to.


Like Trackaholic says, many track day people use some way of determining their lap times and estimating progress - it seems only natural to do this. Even if it's only by watching the whole seconds on your GoPro video as you pass fixed points on the track.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

I think I'd understand the car better if it were slighly less expensive than the ZL-1, similar to how the C6 Z06 Vette is slightly less expensive than the C6 ZR1.

-T

I think that right there is the basis for what a lot of people were hoping for.

I haven't been to Camaro5 yet this morning, but the "2LE" suggestion made over there previously does suggest that people were hoping for a more attainable Z/28 with slightly less exotic content.


Norm

 

[thePill]

The possibilities exist to market a Z28 brand for another 3 years, IF they have the budget. I would have started at as I suggested before...

With the SS Sedan out, I would have eliminated the SS from the lineup. I would have eliminated the 1LE as well... I would market the Z28 BASE as fast as the 1LE, as cheap as the SS. In other words, the Camaro would have gotten better all around...

We could build out a Z28 to a 1LE package (like the 90s) and offer that stripper SS/1LE they wanted, and sold lots of Z28's (hopefully more that 40% of total '14 sales, 35,000 or so). Start building the name back now so it isn't moving the Z28 down come Gen 6. Unless the Z28 continues to be what it has become...

Hit Motorsport up to start engineering on the top level Z/28 (slash). Offer both Z/28.R and Z/28.X (X meaning general, as to Fords "S" for Spec. Kinda you fill in the blank). The .R would be the Pro offering aside the COPO. In fact, ditch COPO, the ZL1 program will take over from here to remain relevant... Lets hit 11.9 this time fella's...

The SS wouldn't return until a Forced Induction car is used again, after the ZL1 is gone that is. You could even offer an LS7 ZL1 via Carbon package. The Aluminum 427 would go back into the ZL1 like the original. From this time on, the ZL1, if needed, will be the big Chevy cubic inch Camaro and be N/A. Any Forced Induction car will be an SS... Period...

The Z28 would carry the LS3 as a base engine but the Z/28 coming out in '15 would have an LT1 option. It would put the slash between the Z and the 28.

 

[thePill]

Z06 could be going forced induction, not sure if that would be supercharged or a turbo (or two). A supercharged Z06 wouldn't be a good option for the old Z06's mission. It could be all the hoopla with the LS7 previously has just pushed Chevy to say "Screw Organized Racing". A supercharged engine is hard to class where an NA engine usually has little class restriction. The z28 missed the competitive mark, and if the GT350 remains NA, the GT350 could indeed become the greatest competitive and widely accepted model for racing and track days.

I repeat Ford... The GT350 has an opportunity to become THE only feasible option in the American automotive industry for racing and casual track. Take note some of the displeasure expressed that the Z06 could be FI of some sort. Turbo engines do make very nice options as road racing drive trains, usually smaller displacement and cylinders. With all the excitement of the new car already spiked, we don't need forced induction seizures right now... Give us a legal NA option and perhaps allow buyers to scale up to carbon ceramic brakes or, if you really want one, a FI GT350. I suggest keep it clean and simple, don't chase the Corvette (anything Chevy based on recent history) and aim directly at your classes competition. If the GT's benchmarks were the M3 and 911, then the GT350 is clear to got up the chain I guess... As long as the GT is widely accepted. I feel that Ford is eager to replace the Boss 302's position in Motorsport and will indeed offer a competitive option at that level. It will be cheaper than the M4 by a good $10,000 in base form but option out to the M4 with all the special stuff that could get it not invited to most classes.

 

[Trackaholic]

Yeah, looks like the z06 will be S/C. I am one of the disappointed ones, as I prefer the simplicity and reduced weight of a normally aspirated motor. No question the Z06 will be a great car, but not quite what I was looking for. Hopefully Ford will continue to offer a track focused normally aspirated engine for a track focused version of the Mustang.

-T

 

[Whiskey11]

This is the amateur element lost with the z28. These are OEM Boss 302's (One Laguna Seca I think) actually competing in sanctioned events. The Boss 302 was sanctioned by Ford Motor Company for use in multiple classes in the SCCA, FIA, NASA and IMSA. This is a mix of Solo and Heat competitions... This is where the z28 should be... In it's glory...

No, it was NOT. At best you could say that Ford created the street going Boss 302 for the same reason the original was created, to homologate the engine and chassis for a real race series with a dedicated factory backed racecar (Boss 302R/302S). The Street going Boss 302 was not designed specifically around sanctioning bodies and it is dishonest as hell to say otherwise.

The Boss 302 is poorly classed in Stock/Street Class (currently A-Stock/A-Street) for Solo purposes and has no advantage over the GT's in ESP and isn't legal for ST competition in Solo either. That is some great planning on Ford's part!

I also don't think Ford is encouraging folks to take their cars to tracks either. It may be implied but it certainly isn't encouraged. Ford knows better. If they were genuinely interested in folks taking their street going cars and tracking them they would have spent some time understanding the type of events enthusiasts do and would back those programs. Ford does not support the SCCA Solo Program and as far as I know they don't offer contingency outside of Pirelli World Challenge, B-Spec, and CTSCC or other series where their turnkey racecars are legal to run.

OMG!!! Look at this crazy road course car!!! What IS HE DOING?!?!?

What is he doing? He is destroying the heritage behind the Boss 302 name, that is what he is doing.

 

[Fenderaddict2]

I also don't think Ford is encouraging folks to take their cars to tracks either.

My Boss 302 owners manual supplement begs to differ. As does my car... I have tracked this street-driven car more than any other car I have had in the past 20 years because it works, it's fun, and the maintenance compared to my old German cars (and the upcoming Z/28) is minimal. Now it's not as cheap to run as the Miatas I used to use, but it's much more practical now having two kids.

 

[thePill]

I've only been trying to get this point across since I joined here . . . call it a track tour if you will, as long as you understand that this "touring" is as hard and as fast as the driver cares to make it.

I understand Norm. I heard many mention open track and HDPE track tours as a spot the z28 would easily fit without restriction. I even watched Chevy juggle "track" and "race" back and forth as well... perhaps there was some confusion internally. I am aware what your original point was, the same as some others... What I am saying is, my point, and after a long dispute was found correct, that the 2014 z28 cannot legally run in organized motorsport in any class. That was the original intent of this very thread... The main purpose of the thread was mainly a reactive measure. One that I seen would maybe present some of those C5 members from actually buying and being disappointed. There was even talk of some selling their cars off NOW, before pricing or details at all. With the little info I had, I could see the z28 would NEVER be a competitive option in both Pro-Am. There are some Chevy officials just now saying "Yes, track days, that is all" however, at the beginning and ALL throughout, there was never any attempts at clarification. The word "race" and "win" and "competitive" was used to market the car. "Track focused" as well...

Open track is fun and as you say, you can see some serious cars there Norm. Those serious cars are usually set to race and compete there eventually in the season. Some do it for fun, most serious guys are doing test, tune and practice. These are usually the "ass-hats" beginners refer to when they are blown by. Now, take a $75,000 z28 that is only limited to open track tours... It is fast and fun, you can get caught up in a friendly back and forth with some of the guys... It is indeed a fun way to open the car up. While most of those serious cars (GT3) go on to race that very track later in the month, the z28 owners are stuck in a perpetual track tour...

I just cannot see many serious people committing to that combination.

I am happy the Chevy officials have finally stepped up and said basically, "yeah, its only for open track, we didn't really mean racing, for real" But still, you have to pay the MSRP for all the serious upgrades required to make the z28 competitive... I mean... a tourer... The ZL1 was the tourer, the supercharged LSA and Magnetic Ride Control makes it illegal in most classes. Another tourer, this time even more disguised as a competitive race ready, track star...

 

[thePill]

No, it was NOT. At best you could say that Ford created the street going Boss 302 for the same reason the original was created, to homologate the engine and chassis for a real race series with a dedicated factory backed racecar (Boss 302R/302S). The Street going Boss 302 was not designed specifically around sanctioning bodies and it is dishonest as hell to say otherwise.

The Boss 302 is poorly classed in Stock/Street Class (currently A-Stock/A-Street) for Solo purposes and has no advantage over the GT's in ESP and isn't legal for ST competition in Solo either. That is some great planning on Ford's part!

I also don't think Ford is encouraging folks to take their cars to tracks either. It may be implied but it certainly isn't encouraged. Ford knows better. If they were genuinely interested in folks taking their street going cars and tracking them they would have spent some time understanding the type of events enthusiasts do and would back those programs. Ford does not support the SCCA Solo Program and as far as I know they don't offer contingency outside of Pirelli World Challenge, B-Spec, and CTSCC or other series where their turnkey racecars are legal to run.

The 2012 Boss 302 was tapered to the SCCA/FIA (US/EU) from the Boss 302R turn key race car (before the S was available). This, along with the Track Attack Racing School for buyers and the fact that the Boss 302 was sanctioned in February 2011 would suggest different. Ford sanctioned the SCCA/FIA first I believe. The "Making Of" video has the team targeting racing in a general term, this was due to the multiple classes it was eligible for. A similar press release goes out for the Boss 302S, it is pretty general.

It should be made clear, Ford attempted to sanction the Laguna Seca in Solo in 2010/2011 before it's release (NASA as well)...

The Boss 302 Laguna Seca was denied in both SCCA and NASA Solo Events. You cannot get the vehicle into the sanction listing unless the manufacturer makes the effort... Ford did that with the Boss, it was ready to go day 1.

Ford marketed the Boss 302 as a race car you could drive to the track... You CAN race it AND, you can drive it to the track.

All four boss models have received heavy restriction since 2011. As I said before, Ford pushed the rulebook in order to beat BMW. The Laguna Seca is in fact too much for some classes.

In other words, the root vehicle was designed in NASCAR's Grand Am for Grand Am only, the other three were attempts to cover the remaining classes... The 302S was used when the Boss 302 or Boss 302LS could not class, usually due to cage requirements. IMSA, Grand Am and the SCCA use the FIA book, NASA is more of it's own but, may of the rules are copy and pasted.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Open track is fun and as you say, you can see some serious cars there Norm. Those serious cars are usually set to race and compete there eventually in the season. Some do it for fun, most serious guys are doing test, tune and practice. These are usually the "ass-hats" beginners refer to when they are blown by.

Sounds like a case of some "beginners" being signed off and moved up too quickly for their skill level . . . expert/unrestricted passing damn near is W2W. Be that as it may, there might be enough ass-hattery to go around - getting offended by the etiquette of the higher class isn't the fault of the folks who have been there a while.

Sometime I'll have to relate the early part of the first session at my very first track day ever. All I'll hint at for now is that it was essentially an open session.

I just cannot see many serious people committing to that combination.

Perhaps not. But I wouldn't be surprised to hear of people throwing a set of true street tires on a separate set of wheels and driving it on the street from time to time. Hell, I'd daily-drive it like that except that I'm retired and don't have to daily-drive anything anywhere unless I really want to.

I am happy the Chevy officials have finally stepped up and said basically, "yeah, its only for open track, we didn't really mean racing, for real" But still, you have to pay the MSRP for all the serious upgrades required to make the z28 competitive... I mean... a tourer... The ZL1 was the tourer, the supercharged LSA and Magnetic Ride Control makes it illegal in most classes. Another tourer, this time even more disguised as a competitive race ready, track star...

Out of curiosity, why did Ford decide to make 15" brakes an option for the S550 if the Z/28 is a bust for sanctioned racing in part for precisely the same reason? Serious question, been holding onto that one long enough.


Norm

 

[thePill]

Sounds like a case of some "beginners" being signed off and moved up too quickly for their skill level . . . expert/unrestricted passing damn near is W2W. Be that as it may, there might be enough ass-hattery to go around - getting offended by the etiquette of the higher class isn't the fault of the folks who have been there a while.

Sometime I'll have to relate the early part of the first session at my very first track day ever. All I'll hint at for now is that it was essentially an open session.


Perhaps not. But I wouldn't be surprised to hear of people throwing a set of true street tires on a separate set of wheels and driving it on the street from time to time. Hell, I'd daily-drive it like that except that I'm retired and don't have to daily-drive anything anywhere unless I really want to.


Out of curiosity, why did Ford decide to make 15" brakes an option for the S550 if the Z/28 is a bust for sanctioned racing in part for precisely the same reason? Serious question, been holding onto that one long enough.


Norm

Norm, Ford decided to use a 15 inch disc because it is the largest size you can run in organized motorsport. Exactly 15 inches equals 381mm, I think you will come to find out that the Mustang's disc are just shy of 15 inches... It will be the SCCA maximum of 380mm, so like 14.90 inches. Ford will need approval for anything over 355mm but, a waiver is granted up to 380mm... Ford has already been approve for this.

They are building the GT and GT350 right up to the rulebook wall this time.

This front disc brake rule gets the z28 thrown out of a lot of organizations. The SCCA and FIA are one in the same, IMSA/ALMS also has a similar rule... NASA has no restrictions except Carbon Ceramic Brakes.

My accusation still stands though, Chevy wanted the z28 to shine in a similar light the little Boss did. Racing, Competition, Winning, Championships... but they didn't do any of the hard work. Ford had a limit, multiple classes and organizations, not counting the competition in those classes.

The z28 has only put up Nurburgring numbers, in which it was actually gunning from the ZL1's time. They are wasting an incredible amount of R&D dollars and they are about to go back.

Another thing Norm, I believe some of the C5 members that defended this legal z28 notion are merely clinging onto "open track" as something... just something the z28 can do. What would the marketing angle be like if Chevy told the truth?

Disclaimer: Chevrolet was caught shaving time off of their "official" lap... I consider the 7:37 about as official as Al. O's 11's all day statement.

Edit: I, thePill, specifically brought this to Ford's attention via Ford employees. They could have been thinking the same thing I was.

 

[Trackaholic]

Open track is fun and as you say, you can see some serious cars there Norm. Those serious cars are usually set to race and compete there eventually in the season. Some do it for fun, most serious guys are doing test, tune and practice. These are usually the "ass-hats" beginners refer to when they are blown by. Now, take a $75,000 z28 that is only limited to open track tours... It is fast and fun, you can get caught up in a friendly back and forth with some of the guys... It is indeed a fun way to open the car up. While most of those serious cars (GT3) go on to race that very track later in the month, the z28 owners are stuck in a perpetual track tour...

I just cannot see many serious people committing to that combination.

I don't what HPDE days are like where you are, but from what I've seen (probably done about 30-40 over the past 10 years) you are greatly over estimating the amount of race cars present.

I'm in Northern CA and visit Laguna Seca, Sears Point (now Sonoma Raceway), and Thunderhill. The vast majority of HPDE attendees are using a street car, with a reasonable number bringing in a dedicated track car on a trailer. However, I do not get the impression that very many of those are racing. To me it seems like at most 20% of the people would be competing in an actual race series (and probably much less - maybe more like 5%). And don't get me started on trying to have a track day with a bunch of LeMons cars out there.

So, to me it seems there are a much greater number that would commit to having a high performance track car for track days than those who would be put-off by the lack of classification for a sanctioned race series.

With that said, I still would rather have the C7 Vette for less money.

-T

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