2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[bballr4567]

Matched it at the track??? Thats a bit of a stretch by anyones imagination. Its laughable that you are holding the Z/28 to the fire for its 7:37 time that was done in pretty shitty conditions (that you say werent that bad, oh right, you know so much about how the tarmac was when it ran) and it bested the GT500 when it is out powered by a shit ton. I guess I can applaud that right??

I guess the blue juice really goes to your brain. Congrats on the supposedly impressive lap time on a track that you supposedly dont care about as far as performance metrics as any company can easily turn it in their favor. ;)

Ford didnt release their times because they know that its all about HP. How would Ford guys react if the measly ZL1 matched its time on the track and then the anemic Z/28 beat it will way less power? Oh yea, wont go over good for the oval.

Sponsored

 

[thePill]

Matched it at the track??? Thats a bit of a stretch by anyones imagination. Its laughable that you are holding the Z/28 to the fire for its 7:37 time that was done in pretty shitty conditions (that you say werent that bad, oh right, you know so much about how the tarmac was when it ran) and it bested the GT500 when it is out powered by a shit ton. I guess I can applaud that right??

I guess the blue juice really goes to your brain. Congrats on the supposedly impressive lap time on a track that you supposedly dont care about as far as performance metrics as any company can easily turn it in their favor. ;)

Ford didnt release their times because they know that its all about HP. How would Ford guys react if the measly ZL1 matched its time on the track and then the anemic Z/28 beat it will way less power? Oh yea, wont go over good for the oval.

Hey, I saw what I saw and so did everybody else. The GT500 had a roll bar and racing seats I believe. None of that equipment is OEM so I am glad there is no official time.

 

[Boss2013]

Matched it at the track??? Thats a bit of a stretch by anyones imagination. Its laughable that you are holding the Z/28 to the fire for its 7:37 time that was done in pretty shitty conditions (that you say werent that bad, oh right, you know so much about how the tarmac was when it ran) and it bested the GT500 when it is out powered by a shit ton. I guess I can applaud that right??

I guess the blue juice really goes to your brain. Congrats on the supposedly impressive lap time on a track that you supposedly dont care about as far as performance metrics as any company can easily turn it in their favor. ;)

Ford didnt release their times because they know that its all about HP. How would Ford guys react if the measly ZL1 matched its time on the track and then the anemic Z/28 beat it will way less power? Oh yea, wont go over good for the oval.

How would the Ford guys react? They would build the GT500 and they would sell like hotcakes. Nobody who is a true Blue Oval fan is ever going to pick a Camaro over a Mustang no matter what kind of propaganda GM, or it's sponsored website/mouthpiece, Camaro5, puts out there.

The Camaro always has and always will play second fiddle to the a Mustang in peoples hearts and minds. A couple of seconds one way or the other on some track half way around the world is not going to change that. Ever.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

The Camaro always has and always will play second fiddle to the a Mustang in peoples hearts and minds.

That's a bit of a generalization

 

[Whiskey11]

Sure does look like the GT500 bests the ZL1. What I'm disappointed is that we don't have a timer on the video along with indicated MPH of the GT500. You can see that in the beginning the ZL1 is marginally fast than the GT500 due to the technical turns and lack of straights where the GT500 can really open up. However at the end with the long straight the GT500 more than makes up for it.

Keep in mind that the chassis is not the limiting factor in the corners when comparing the Mustang to the Camaro... it's the 20mm worth of tire at all four corners on the ZL1, AND R-Comps on the Z/28 with 40mm more tire up front and 20mm more tire out back. This difference cannot be ignored, it's too big of a difference to ignore. On a 60 second autocross course, same tire, same compound and equally supported 20mm more tire is worth about .75 seconds (Thanks Norm Peterson!). On a 7 minute course in autocross that comes up to 5.25 seconds. What does that translate to on the Nurburgring? No idea but I'd be interested to see what happens when that advantage is equalized and we really focus on what the cars are actually capable of. Of course, modding != stock so I can see that argument too.

The IRS does have some small roll to play in stability of the car on track and I will give the ZL1/Z/28 props in stability at speed that the Mustang doesn't have but how much of that is perspective shown by the camera's location? I don't know, the Mustang was a lot less composed and I don't think it has anything to do with the live axle out back and has more to do with the driver over powering the rear tires.

What I do think is impressive is that despite being down a lot of tire to both Camaros, the GT500 still beat it's competitor the ZL1, again, on a roadcourse, this time one of the most punishing ones in the world with ye olde live axle out back and uber fade brakes all around. I think props are long overdue. I'm also not 100% sure these cars would be that different mid corner speed wise wearing the same set of shoes.

My post is not to discredit the incredible work that GM has done with the Z/28 and ZL1 though as they are incredible cars that can really hustle the 3800lb+ chassis around a road course without a lot of drama.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Of course, modding != stock so I can see that argument too.

Exactly. Because in my mind the money spent on tires for the GT500, you could also spend money on mods for the ZL1. It probably wouldnt have as much of an impact but still..

 

[Whiskey11]

Exactly. Because in my mind the money spent on tires for the GT500, you could also spend money on mods for the ZL1. It probably wouldnt have as much of an impact but still..

Well, my argument is that if we really want to see deficiencies and strengths in a chassis we should eliminate tires as a variable since they are the sole thing shared between the cars that contacts the ground and are the largest deciding factor in performance. Eliminate that difference to see how the chassis itself is built and setup and run. I would say the same in any other comparison in which there is drastic differences in tire compounds, size, and construction. I said the same thing when the BMW M3 went up against the Brembo GT in 2011 at Willow Springs. Pick a tire, equalize it and the size and go to town. Then we can see which is the more capable chassis rather than trying to see that in addition to parsing out the noise created by tires, pun not intended.

And the only reason I say the above is because people want to make claims like "The ZL1 is better in the corners and the Mustang in straights" which is certainly true for the stock cars but people want to attribute the Mustang's cornering "deficiency" to that of a chassis induced deficiency because of the live axle when I'm fairly confident it's related to the tires.

 

[thePill]

The 2014 z28 had an internal projected MSRP of $65,000+... I am hearing now the base MSRP will be north of $70,000. The engine, brakes and wheels bring it up to $65k over the 1LE and that's not figuring in the suspension and weight reduction.

I would not pay over $50k for this car....

 

[Norm Peterson]

How would the Ford guys react? They would build the GT500 and they would sell like hotcakes. Nobody who is a true Blue Oval fan is ever going to pick a Camaro over a Mustang no matter what kind of propaganda GM, or it's sponsored website/mouthpiece, Camaro5, puts out there.

The Camaro always has and always will play second fiddle to the a Mustang in peoples hearts and minds. A couple of seconds one way or the other on some track half way around the world is not going to change that. Ever.


Short of canceling either car like GM did with the 4th gen Camaro/Firebird, you aren't going to see very many hardcore brand loyalists jumping over to the other car anyway. IOW, sales won or lost aren't going to be coming from those groups.

True, a couple seconds out of 7:40-ish lap times won't be the single deciding factor for many people, but that's not all that these cars should be about. It's like a breath of fresh air that the Z/28 is coming stripped of the features and conveniences that really just make cars more complicated and "showy" than they need to be. And it doesn't even matter if the real reason for its "stripped" build turns out to have specifically been for weight loss for 'Ring times, because there should be room in the lineup for at least one model equipped with little more than its bare essentials.

While I'm not at all excited about the Z/28's reputed pricing, I wouldn't object to paying a little for a "blanket feature delete" option from a standard V8 Mustang build, with A/C and FM/CD added back on from there. Or Camaro, for that matter, if Alpha comes in a few inches shorter and 300 or so lbs lighter than Zeta. If it matters any (or helps at all with understanding where I'm coming from) I'd still buy a manual transmission car even if the otherwise exact same car with automatic was less expensive. Every damn time.


Edit: posts get added when I get distracted; quote back to post #438 for reference


Norm

 

[Boss2013]

That's a bit of a generalization

You are right. That should have read "in most peoples hearts and minds".

This, I think, is what rubs the GM guys the wrong way. No matter if a Camaro looks better or performs better than the Mustang, it will always be the car that was the response to the original ponycar.

The Galaxy from Samsung May very we'll be the top performer in the tablet space today, but the Apple IPad will always be remembered as the product that created the segment.

 

[thePill]

I figured I would end this crazy week (My birthday weekend) with a little incite on when the GT500's Ring run was. As I said earlier, the Deep Impact Blue w/Black strips was photographed on the Mustang's 48th Birthday, April 17th, 2012. Automobile was covering the story but there was never a conclusion. April would have been some of the first production 2013 GT500's. Here is a picture of the 7:39 GT500 reported by Motor Trend/Automobile magazine. Here is the link to the story... http://strumors.automobilemag.com/f...500-at-Nurburgring-front-view-AM-1024x640.jpg

Okay, so, I know this isn't solid proof... However, Ford left us an Easter egg... The White GT500 that was caught in the video...

Here is the same White GT500 videoed at the Ring and posted on the 7th of May, 3 weeks later.

I am warning you all now... If Ford waited 18 months to to let this slip, what else do you think they are keeping quiet?

You better PRAY you can get a video of the z28 doing a 7:31...

OH NO!!!! IN THE RAIN!!!! LETS THROW A TANTRUM!!!

...and back into the Jaguar garage... You will notice here that the photographer is standing in a restricted area...

What does that tell you? That this was approved by Ford. Approved and then waited for the z28 to release a time...

Pay special attention to the equipment on the interior and exterior of the cars both White and Blue... Video and data were collected. On one hand, you have Ford not saying a word about anything win or lose... On the other side, Al claims a 7:31, in dry conditions BUT in traffic which is 6 seconds faster than the video released... That statement is more widely accepted than the GT500's Ring video.

 

[thePill]

Ask yourselves this...

Is the 2014 z28 really worth it? All the suspension work they said that went into it and the advantage over the GT500 and ZL1 can be credited to R tires. Not even R tires, you could blame it on driver making the difference. The GT500 and ZL1 are on Goodyear's, probably the worst (but cheapest) option. It is a track focused car but isn't widely accepted in a large majority of organizations for it's OEM equipment. Is this thing going to list for over $70,000??? You can't race it, it isn't a daily driver, drag racing is not recommended and it isn't really faster than the 2012 ZL1 and 2013 GT500. It cost $20-30,000 more than the two Boss 302's, almost as much as a 302S but they are a widely accepted and successful option for racers of all levels.

I say no... From the sound of it, it is essentially a 1LE with an LS7, Carbon Ceramic Brakes and all the extra stuff. I am figuring $66,929 (Camaro's Birthday) with no options...

 

[Norm Peterson]

In and of itself at $65k+, probably for only a small population.

If it coaxes Ford (and possibly Chrysler) to build cars with similar intent but at a more palatable price point, the fact that it exists at all would be sufficient.


Norm

 

[bballr4567]

Hey, I saw what I saw and so did everybody else. The GT500 had a roll bar and racing seats I believe. None of that equipment is OEM so I am glad there is no official time.

It didnt just have a "roll bar", it has a pretty decent cage in that BB car. You know, the same exact thing you whined about GM putting in theirs.

There are never any "official" times from the 'Ring. Figured you would know that.

 

[thePill]

It didnt just have a "roll bar", it has a pretty decent cage in that BB car. You know, the same exact thing you whined about GM putting in theirs.

There are never any "official" times from the 'Ring. Figured you would know that.

Big Red's interior pic didn't have an extensive 10+ point cage. Most of the front portions are not present. From what I gather, it was a 7 or 8 point roll bar. They also have a back seat still in which those points are required for a roll cage. Granted, an 8 point roll bar is the foundation for the roll cage. The GT500 benefitted immensely from the roll bar it ran with, Red was the 7:30 car remember... I confirmed the ZL1 had a full cage, it looked like 12+.


I think Team Camaro is trying to pass the cage-less, Silver z28 off as the lap setter. If the z28 had no roll bar or roll cage, that will be impressive. That is where Team Camaro should be advertising... Just as long they are being honest.

Sponsored