2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[Norm Peterson]

Site won't let me edit?


Norm

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[BaylorCorvette]

The z28 would be a great car for many over there, a wanna be car for a wanna be driver.

So you can't be a real driver if you drive the Z/28? That would make them what, fictional?

Nobody have the b@lls to question Chevy's Milford media laps? Doesn't that seem strange to you? The lap was done with very little effort and not much speed at all.

Well you're more than picking up the slack in that department, that's for sure.

Only people on Camaro5 would believe that, even after independent test say otherwise. So desperate for a victory it's actually pretty demeaning to your characters.

That's a bit of a generalization, don't you think?

Most z28 owners won't be interested in racing, simply because they can't

False. Like I've already said, most Z/28 owners are going to be rich middle aged / older men that are buying this because of the name (Z/28), because it's the next "cool" thing out, or as a d!ck measuring tool :headbonk:

Chevy is misrepresenting the z28 in road racing, selling the car as a showroom race car right? It isn't legal anywhere for multiple reasons.

Possibly. Chevy has refered to the Z/28 as being track capable several times.
Good old marketing, stay vague and let the public read into it however they want to translate it.

You tell me, what is the purpose of the 2014 Camaro z28??? In your own words... I want to say racing but, we know better than that.

I don't get why you say you can't track / race the car. You can easily do that, now can you go race it in any sanctioned event? That's a different story. You're falling prey to reading too much into Chevy's marketing. However IF Chevy came out and said the Z/28 is going into X racing event and racing in Y class while being completely false, then we have a problem. But to my knowledge they haven't said the Z/28 is targeted/can race in X specific event. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Bottom line, what's going to happen? Car journalists & Car magazines are going to get their hands on a Z/28 to test at some point. What are they likely going to pit it up against? My guess is some sort of Mustang (among other things too). They will conduct their typical tests, it is up to them to have an asterisk and say that the Z/28 while having good performance numbers cannot be raced in (fill in sanctioned race event name here).

 

[BaylorCorvette]

So it still comes down to the difference between "track-capable"* and "race-series-legal". Or if you prefer, between "track-capable" and "race-legal-in-a-series-where-it-actually-has-better-than-a-snowball's-chance".


* my term; Chevy uses a few more words to say the same thing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevrolet.com/culture/article/camaro-z28-returns-2014
Lightweight, nimble and incredibly powerful, the original Z/28 was designed ideally for road racing. The 2014 Z/28 carries the same racing credentials

Anybody who misreads that to mean class-legal - let alone be dominant in that class - is guilty of reading way too much into Chevy's advertising copy. Anybody. The comparison is only between the new car's basic design intent (hard-core road-race oriented) and the original Z/28's raison d'être.


Then again, the sort of person who reads the advertising and stays all starry-eyed over it is not likely to be the same guy who has ever seriously read anybody's rulebook to discover what is or isn't class-legal anywhere. Never mind reading for enough comprehension to settle any curiosity about "grey areas" or if some sort of "de-modding" and sanctioning body approval might be required in order to run it somewhere where it at least stands a chance.

Does this mean that Chevy is misleading its potential customers? Possibly. Maybe even probably. Does that absolve said customers from doing their own due diligence? At this price point, no.

I get that there were high hopes and great expectations for the Z/28 over on Camaro5.com (and you might consider how the people active in that particular sub-forum actually use their cars).

Downstream from that, if we aren't a little careful, something similar could happen here if hopes and expectations grab control of the reins for, say, a Boss-trim S550. Like with the Z/28, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot about any S550 or its road course capability that's public knowledge yet.


FWIW, the Z/28 ride-alongs given to the various media weren't even given at the same intensity. Chris Frezza didn't get nearly as hard of a drive as the guy from slash-whatever, and I feel a little bad for Chris. Kind of aside from this is that the drivers consistently put all four wheels all the way off and to the inside of the curbing in the right hand ess turn. If they really wanted to demonstrate nimble handling, they'd at most only put the right side wheels on the curbing. Of course, if they drove that line they probably wouldn't consistently break 2 minutes flat at the same self-imposed "8/10ths" limit.


Norm

Norm beat me to it..

In my opinion there are two schools of thought here that GM could take with the Z/28, or really any of its sports cars. The first one being, build the vehicle so that in OEM spec in can compete in sanctioned races, or at least sanctioned races against its main competition. This will allow the vehicles to be compared directly to each other, you can see how many races they win, etc.

Now on the other hand, throw all the rules out the window and build a vehicle that is balls to the wall, with massive brakes, a huge engine, huge tires, etc. That's pretty much what the Z/28 is.

GM claims the Z/28 runs these great times at the track, I will reserve judgment and see what independent claims say, like Randy. I'm on the fence about the new Z/28 and I'm not going to fall into the marketing hype that GM is putting out, not just yet. I'm reading/posting in this thread because you don't see a lot of what of GM/Chevy things challenged on Camaro5 and other similar GM forums, however I think that can be said for most forums and their preferred brand.

 

[Jim968]

All SCCA/NASA Showroom Stock classes, Am Sedan classes and SCCA T3 class are all OEM with NO CAGE. NASA Time Trials can be run stock as well, it's up to the teams to manage penalty points. These are off the top of my head and pertaining to RWD coupes. There are Compact classes that are OEM. The SCCA has quite a few classes that have little or no modifications. In fact, Amateur classes do not require cages is the SCCA. That is a huge list of cars. Due to the CC brakes, tires and disc diameter (LS7 sometimes too), Pro racing for the z28 is probably out of the question. Am classes in SCCA and NASA still require Iron disc... and a maximum of 14 inch disc as well (I think this is worldwide as well).

Once again you continue to be fact challenged. Per the 2013 SCCA General Competition Rules - page 111 - “9.4. ROLL CAGES FOR GT AND PRODUCTION BASED CARS - All cars must utilize a roll cage compliant with the following specifica*tions…”

In the most simple terms, you can’t run an SCCA road race without a roll cage. If you bother to read the rules, you’ll see that there are a myriad of other safety items that need to be installed before a car will pass tech and be allowed to race.

Furthermore, in the classes you mentioned, there are a number of things you’ll need to do the car in order to be competitive. American Sedan has 20 pages of allowable modifications. Even the fairly restrictive T3 class allows modification of exhaust, brakes, suspension, and interior stripping among others.

I know this is difficult for you to understand, but your concept of an “OEM race car” simply does not exist in 2013. You are criticizing the Z28 because it does not conform to an ideal that exists only in your deluded mind.

I can see that it’s not possible to have a rational discussion with you so I will quit trying, but I’ll leave you with a suggestion. One of these days why don’t you back away from the keyboard and actually go attend a race. Walk through the paddock, look at the cars, talk to the drivers and the crews, and find out how things actually work in the real world.

You do know that the classes you are suggesting the z28 compete in (LOL) are indeed non-production right? ST1, ST2, ST3 and SU (LOL) are all non-production classes. This was why I posted the New car list. Chevy needs to get on that list in order to compete in Super Touring. It would take a Non-production z28 to compete in that class (ST2). That said, ST2 cars use tube frames (ST1 for sure).

This statement reflects a complete misunderstanding of the rules and is wrong in every respect.

 

[PowerUp]

This statement reflects a complete misunderstanding of the rules and is wrong in every respect.

Correction: This THREAD reflects an intentional misunderstanding of the rules and is wrong in every respect.

To have a reasonable, and reasoned, discussion/debate with someone, there must be, by default, REASON present. And facts. The OP consistently and repeatedly has shown an incapability to take simple FACTS and not slant them, in some form or fashion, to be totally discreditable to the Camaro and/or General Motors. Bordering on some form of condition many in the medical profession would love to analyse in a clinical setting.

My advice: treat this diatribe as a person singing in the shower. Best left alone. Sounds terrific to the singer. Pull back the shower curtain, and OMG!

Your vain attempts at rehabbing the patient are exactly that: in vain, when dealing with the totally vain/myopic. But credit is given for your attempts.

 

[thePill]

With all that said, is the z28 legal anywhere?

What class? What level of competition?


In USC, SCCA, Sanctioned NASA and FIA the CC brakes disqualify it. These are classes the Mustang is in.


Is this really a car for rich old men? People are using the OEM Boss 302's, as well as the LS and 302S. Unfortunately, you are just limited to Solo Time Trials.

On the competitive side, the 2014 z28 is a huge failure. To Z/28 purist, it's a joke dress in Auto Zone trim.

 

[Jim968]

My advice: treat this diatribe as a person singing in the shower. Best left alone. Sounds terrific to the singer. Pull back the shower curtain, and OMG!

Your vain attempts at rehabbing the patient are exactly that: in vain, when dealing with the totally vain/myopic. But credit is given for your attempts.

I agree with you 100%.

I hope at least I've been able to disabuse everyone of the notion that thePill has any facts to offer about racing.

 

[thePill]

I agree with you 100%.

I hope at least I've been able to disabuse everyone of the notion that thePill has any facts to offer about racing.

Were you not suggesting the stock z28 will do well in SU? That is pretty funny. I can tell your pro bro...

Find a class for the z28. I can name probably a dozen OEM Boss classes. Another dozen that use the near OEM R and S. Find a class, I'll wait...



Edit: Neither of your arguments help support the possibility of a usable z28. Chevy is still marketing it as such. You gotta think... If it wasn't a concern Motor Trend and Hot Rod wouldn't have brought it up.


...and Al himself confirmed there isn't an existing option. He would like to create a special series. From the horses mouth...

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Is this really a car for rich old men? People are using the OEM Boss 302's, as well as the LS and 302S. Unfortunately, you are just limited to Solo Time Trials.

IMHO and at this price point? Yes.

as per this graph, peak earning years for Americans are into their 50's.

LINK

Sure if you're financially irresponsible you can take a huge loan or monthly payment to get a Z/28. But let's be realistic. It's an expensive, limited production vehicle. Realistically who is going to be buying that? Perhaps in a few years younger individuals will be buying them used, similar to what people do with the Z06.

"Interestingly enough, insurance rates for Corvettes are not as high as one might think. This is because insurance companies know that the average Corvette owner is generally between 45 and 60 years of age. Many younger drivers are simply priced out of the market. Corvette has long been a symbol of affluence and social status.
Corvette buyers are often middle-aged men looking to recapture their lost youth or stereotypically having a midlife crisis. But these are individuals who by that point in their lives can afford the extravagance of a Corvette. The Corvette is also impractical for family driving. It is a two-seat roadster with little enough cargo room."

The Z/28 cost more than a base Corvette. The same base Corvette that this artcile describes as being "priced out of the market" to younger drivers. It also mentions it is impractical for family driving. Pretty sure the Z/28 is impractical for family driving too..

"The Camaro, as opposed to the Corvette, is priced on the lower end of the scale and therefore is much more affordable for younger car enthusiasts."

Except the Z/28 is not priced low and is therefore much less affordable for younger car owners..

LINK




SO yes, I do believe it will be older/middle aged men driving/owning THIS Z/28. Some may want to "race" it, but I bet most don't care. ;)

 

[thePill]

That's a shame... If you exchange the huge CC brakes with 14 inch cast iron rotors and came down to a 285 all around, the price would have dropped and it would be possible to waiver the z28's LS7 due to it's 4000lbs race weight.

The 25-35 crowd would be buying them then.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

^ Agreed.

 

[PowerUp]

That's a shame... If you exchange the huge CC brakes with 14 inch cast iron rotors and came down to a 285 all around, the price would have dropped and it would be possible to waiver the z28's LS7 due to it's 4000lbs race weight.

The 25-35 crowd would be buying them then.

Here is where, I suspect, the problem lies. The price has yet to be set.

One last chance, Pill:

In 10,000 words or less of unbiased, unslanted, neutral verbage, please explain YOUR interpretation of how the specific equipment included in the '14 Z/28 was finalized by GM. Recognizing the FACT that GM did NOT create THIS Z/28 as they did the ORIGINAL, as a homologation special for an existing specific racing Series. Or any racing Series extant. 3,000 or so LS7-engined Camaros on R-compound tires of "square" dimension on forged 19s, with MultiMatic suspension assist and cost-effective NHTSA-satisfying weight reduction. With a VIN and a 5/100 Warranty.

I'm listening. Just this once.

 

[Norm Peterson]

That's a shame... If you exchange the huge CC brakes with 14 inch cast iron rotors and came down to a 285 all around, the price would have dropped and it would be possible to waiver the z28's LS7 due to it's 4000lbs race weight

The 25-35 crowd would be buying them then.

I suspect that the age distribution among Z/28's built to that spec would still be slanted more towards "older" than the age distribution for the current 1LE. Disposable income is only one factor. Others include young families vs "empty nest" and fewer younger people actively wanting a pure all-performance no-frills car.

My kids and their spouses/ex's average age is roughly 40, their kids range from 8 to 16, and there are things they seem to have a hard time doing without - things that they never grew up with like satellite radio and NAV systems. They, and people like them, would never be prospective current Z/28 buyers.


Norm

 

[bballr4567]

I love it when facts get presented over and over again and they are glossed over by certain people.

 

[All-Or-Nothing]

This thread has gone round and round and round.

No one has stated what class or series the Z28 will be legal to race in and what modifications will be neccesary to do it.

Anyone (maybe you Camaro guys) care to list the class along with said modifications needed?

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