2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[MARZ]

The issue was the ZL1 had brake cooling ducts and the GT500 did not, correct?

Cherry-picked comments don't tell the whole story here. Pobst also said that, "with a brake upgrade, the Mustang is going to be the better car for track work, and probably a better car on the street, too, because the Mustang is better-balanced. The Camaro has more understeer through the middle of a corner, and the Mustang really puts the power down." While it is inexcusable that a $60K+, 662-horse Shelby came from the factory with such compromised braking, the fix is a simple brake fluid swap, proven by Van of Revan Racing almost immediately after receipt of his 2013 GT500. To me, swapping brake fluid is going to be easier than trying to cope with the ZL1's snap-understeer.

As an aside, Van also showed that, at least at Homestead in Florida, the Camaro ZL1's charge-cooling setup is far less efficient at mitigating heat soak than the Shelby's. He even made mention of Afco twin-fan heat exchanger-equipped ZL1s heat soaking quicker than his stock (save for the brake fluid) GT500. But, hey, at least the ZL1's MRC-assisted ride is nice and cushy and its exhaust note, more subdued.

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[MARZ]

I don't know if that was the issue or not. The ZL1 does have brake cooling ducts though.

Another thing to keep in mind is of you go to Ford's site, the GT500 has a base price of $55,595 and Chevy's site has the ZL1 at $55,055

GT500

ZL1

If you want the SVT Bilstein electronic adjustable dampers, TORSEN diff, engine oil cooler, trans cooler and diff cooler that is another + $6,490, the price gap then jumps to the GT500 costing $7,030 more. The ZL1 has all of these things standard...

The GT500 tested by Randy at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca had all of these options. It is also likely that the GT500 at Grattan Raceway had similar options since its price as tested was $63,080

While I can't speak for everyone, at these price levels, I don't think ~$7K is a deal breaker. Heck, one could make the case that the GT500's forged internals and better visibility are worth the premium.

 

[2112]

Cherry-picked comments don't tell the whole story here. Pobst also said that, "with a brake upgrade, the Mustang is going to be the better .

I wasn't cherry picking, just addressing Baylor's comment from what I remembered reading in that article many months ago.

Even with the upgraded brake fluid, cooling ducts would be a great idea.

 

[Norm Peterson]

What really happened is, they seen how much the ZL1 was ahead before the straight

Sorry, but the comparative video is not demonstrating that at all. The Z/28 is well ahead, around 7 seconds exiting the turn onto the long straight. Is there a different video?

LOL!! So they are suggesting, that because the z28 was up 6 seconds before the rain, that, in the dry, WITH traffic, they could have maintained that 6 second lead? Even when the ZL1 is doing 10-14mph faster for the entire straight?

Not 10 - 14 mph more for the whole straight, not by a long shot. Look more closely at the times and speeds as the two cars pass the same points along the straight. Although the ZL1 exits the turn onto the straight going 16 mph faster (the weather issue), it gives up nearly half of that speed advantage by the Audi bridge and doesn't regain a 10 mph speed advantage until the segment between a large sign and the Bilstein bridge, where it is still 5 seconds back. This is virtually at the end of the straight, so the big speed advantage only exists for two short stretches. Most of the rest of the time, the ZL1 shows only a 6 - 8 mph average advantage between various distinguishable objects. Over a two mile straight, that only gains the ZL1 something like 3 seconds. 3 from 7 = 4, or right at the claimed margin at the end of the lap.


Norm

 

[MARZ]

I wasn't cherry picking, just addressing Baylor's comment from what I remembered reading in that article many months ago.

Even with the upgraded brake fluid, cooling ducts would be a great idea.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were cherry-picking comments. I was referring to the post you quoted.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Ok so if you're changing the brakes / brake fluid etc, you are devating from factory set up. If that's the case what do you think you could do with an extra $7k+ in the ZL1.... that's the point I'm making.

People will buy what they like. However for the $7k I saved on my ZL1 I could easily add pulley, headers, intake, injectors etc. In fact I'm in the process of doing this. Once again personal opinion, and I know I'm not going to be changing people's mind over here on a Ford site.

 

[2112]

Marz, I will try to be less sensitive.

Baylor, ducts, not complete new brakes. Not that I am saying a GT500 is a bargain compared to the ZL1.

 

[MARZ]

Ok so if you're changing the brakes / brake fluid etc, you are devating from factory set up. If that's the case what do you think you could do with an extra $7k+ in the ZL1.... that's the point I'm making.

People will buy what they like. However for the $7k I saved on my ZL1 I could easily add pulley, headers, intake, injectors etc. In fact I'm in the process of doing this. Once again personal opinion, and I know I'm not going to be changing people's mind over here on a Ford site.

No modifications were made to the brakes; only the brake fluid was changed. And, with $7,000, I'm not sure what you could do with the ZL1. I'm sure you could add horsepower, but the smaller supercharger with its tiny intercooler and reservoir and the engine with its cast internals probably don't have the performance ceiling the GT500 does. You'd definitely have to address cooling as, even with aftermarket heat exchangers, the ZL1 is prone to crippling heat soak. Maybe you could fit a NAV system into the ZL1. One thing is for sure, though, and that is that your new car warranty is out the window.

Further, applying your logic, assuming the forthcoming Z28 is $65K, what could one transform a Mustang Boss 302 (the car that Chevrolet compared their Z28 to in their hero video) into with $15-20K? Where does it end? I'm referring to cars, off the lot. If changing the brake fluid is a considerable modification in your book, then we're obviously on different pages.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Baylor, ducts, not complete new brakes. Not that I am saying a GT500 is a bargain compared to the ZL1.

Yeah I know what you mean.

No modifications were made to the brakes; only the brake fluid was changed.

It's kind of funny that makes a huge difference, yet Ford hasn't addressed this (correct me if I'm wrong)?? I mean if it makes that big of a difference you would think Ford would make the change ASAP so it would perform better in independent reviews.

And, with $7,000, I'm not sure what you could do with the ZL1. I'm sure you could add horsepower, but the smaller supercharger with its tiny intercooler and reservoir and the engine with its cast internals probably don't have the performance ceiling the GT500 does. You'd definitely have to address cooling as, even with aftermarket heat exchangers, the ZL1 is prone to crippling heat

Agreed about the performance ceiling. However to achieve stock GT500 performance levels (as far as power) wouldn't take much. I also agree about the cooling issue, and that's why that was one of the first things to address on my car before I started any moding. Getting a larger reservoir (less than $400) and will be going to a better heat exchanger.

Maybe you could fit a NAV system into the ZL1.

Oh you mean like the one that came on mine? It was only the 2012 ZL1 that didn't have NAV option.

One thing is for sure, though, and that is that your new car warranty is out the window.

Yup, gotta pay to play though.

Further, applying your logic, assuming the forthcoming Z28 is $65K, what could one transform a Mustang Boss 302 (the car that Chevrolet compared their Z28 to in their hero video) into with $15-20K? Where does it end? I'm referring to cars, off the lot. If changing the brake fluid is a considerable modification in your book, then we're obviously on different pages.

Oh I'm not disagreeing at all. IF you read my previous posts I'm not that big of a fan of the Z/28, at least not for its price tag. I do not consider changing brake fluid a considerable mod, however I prefaced my statement with "deviating from OEM equipment"

I'm just saying comparing a ZL1 vs GT500 on similar price levels. It seems all of the reviews I've seen/read between the two has the GT500 with all the performance options, which makes that large price gap. I would like to see track comparisons between the two without these track/performance mods for the GT500, which would keep the two in very similar price levels.

Lets be honest though, if you want pure performance, why buy a Camaro when GM has the Corvette and its variants available..

 

[MARZ]

It's kind of funny that makes a huge difference, yet Ford hasn't addressed this (correct me if I'm wrong)?? I mean if it makes that big of a difference you would think Ford would make the change ASAP so it would perform better in independent reviews.

I guess it depends on which reviews you read. I remember perusing articles that praised the 2013 GT500's braking prowess while others, like the Motor Trend article we talked about above, stated that it was the car's Achilles' heel. Also, since I don't have a GT500, I'm just going on the information gleaned from the various Mustang-related forums and outlets. I will say that I have the GT500's 15-inch, six-piston Brembos on my 2011 GT and they perform very well, though, I'll admit, my car is primarily a daily driver.

Agreed about the performance ceiling. However to achieve stock GT500 performance levels (as far as power) wouldn't take much. I also agree about the cooling issue, and that's why that was one of the first things to address on my car before I started any moding. Getting a larger reservoir (less than $400) and will be going to a better heat exchanger.

I don't believe 662 horsepower in a two-ton Camaro ZL1 is the same as 662 horsepower in a GT500. I use the video of Torq's Camaro ZL1 getting embarrassed by a Boss 302 from 40 mph rolls to support said claim, though I know there are other intangible factors that could have been at play there (such as the aforementioned heat soak). In your pursuit of reaching GT500 numbers, who knows how the added cylinder pressure will affect things like engine longevity and what kind of bearing that extra power would have on the resilience of other expensive components. Further, the ZL1's little Eaton TVS 1900 / intercooler combo isn't as efficient as the GT500's TVS 2300, especially at boost levels exceeding nominal OEM. Simply swapping pulleys and spinning the 1900 faster means the less-efficient blower would produce even more heat than it already does stock.

Inside Line dyno tested the ZL1 and GT500 back to back on the same dyno and achieved 497 rwhp and 595 rwhp, respectively. There, you're at an almost-100 horsepower disadvantage. That's not insignificant, IMO.

Oh you mean like the one that came on mine? It was only the 2012 ZL1 that didn't have NAV option.

My mistake. I forgot about the updates made to the 2013 Camaro's interior.

Yup, gotta pay to play though.

That seems far less attractive to me than simply buying a GT500 and swapping the brake fluid, all while retaining the car's factory warranty. You wouldn't have to worry about any Boss 302 Mustangs smoking your a** in a GT500, either.

Lets be honest though, if you want pure performance, why buy a Camaro when GM has the Corvette and its variants available..

Agreed.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

I don't believe 662 horsepower in a two-ton Camaro ZL1 is the same as 662 horsepower in a GT500. I use the video of Torq's Camaro ZL1 getting embarrassed by a Boss 302 from 40 mph rolls to support said claim, though I know there are other intangible factors that could have been at play there (such as the aforementioned heat soak). In your pursuit of reaching GT500 numbers, who knows how the added cylinder pressure will affect things like engine longevity and what kind of bearing that extra power would have on the resilience of other expensive components. Further, the ZL1's little Eaton TVS 1900 / intercooler combo isn't as efficient as the GT500's TVS 2300, especially at boost levels exceeding nominal OEM. Simply swapping pulleys and spinning the 1900 faster means the less-efficient blower would produce even more heat than it already does stock.

Fair points and I'm simply basing my statements off of the improvements I've seen by modifying my ZL1 and what others have done to theirs too.

Anyways I'll refrain from discussing the ZL1 & GT500 any more, I don't want to take this thread off topic from the Z/28 any more than I already have.

 

[Jim968]

First, the z28 is not permitted in NASA.

Please explain why it would not be eligible in the NASA ST and SU classes. I just reviewed the rules and I don't see a problem.

 

[Norm Peterson]

It's kind of funny that makes a huge difference, yet Ford hasn't addressed this (correct me if I'm wrong)?? I mean if it makes that big of a difference you would think Ford would make the change ASAP so it would perform better in independent reviews.

I do not consider changing brake fluid a considerable mod, however I prefaced my statement with "deviating from OEM equipment".

As I understand it, the boiling point for higher temperature brake fluids drops faster over time than does the boiling point for lower temperature fluids. This wasn't where I heard it first, just the first one that came up on a search.

http://honda-tech.com/showpost.php?p=21465187&postcount=1

Ford is probably concerned mainly with the purely street driven, street/strip, or street/autocross car and specifies a brake fluid that's more than adequate for any driving short of open tracking - but whose boiling point goes away at a slower rate. It then occurs to me that GM could be looking at this from the other direction by specifying a somewhat better brake fluid and using that as part of its apparent willingness to extend the warranty on some models to include track usage.


Norm

 

[All-Or-Nothing]

I figured The Pill would get a kick out of this Yahoo article on the Z28.

Here is a quote...

The evidence of an all-out performer arrived via the car's 7 minute 37.40 second lap time around the infamous Nurburgring. That's faster than a Porsche 911 Carrera S and Lamborghini Murcielago, but was set in the rain. Chevy estimates that the car could pull a 7 minute 31 second lap. "We want to be in conversation with the Porsche 911 GT3 and Nissan GTR," said Al Oppenheiser, Camaro chief engineer. "We've ran much faster times than what we've posted," he continued, stating that you cannot video normal testing runs due to the privacy of other OEM's vehicles on track, leaving just a brief 15 minute window to record attempts.
At GM's mini-Ring test track in Milford, Mich., the team has run all of Ford's heavy hitters. The Z/28 lapped the track in 1 minute, 53.71 seconds. The Boss 302 Laguna Seca: 1:59.05. And the Boss is faster than the GT500. The Z/28 is even three seconds faster than the Camaro ZL1. Below is a video of that test, released by Chevy.

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/riding-2014-chevy-camaro-z-28-factory-bred-155143023.html

 

[thePill]

Please explain why it would not be eligible in the NASA ST and SU classes. I just reviewed the rules and I don't see a problem.

You don't see a problem? Well, at least you Camaro fans are reading rule books now. Did you calculate the race weight and power to weight ratio to see where it would class? Forget SU, it's similar to Daytona Prototype (I lol'd at that).

Here are the classes...


ST1: 5.50-7.99
ST2: 8.00-8.99
ST3: 9.00-up


Now, TT follows the ST classes... ST3 contains highly modified Boss 302S's and caged Riley Z06's. The z28 will class in ST2 and TT2... There is a problem with that... ST/TT3 isn't OEM (Think Boss 302R, only customized.


American Iron is where OEM takes place.


Technically, the z28 is legal for Formula 1, but......


I did some NASA math for the z28 long ago, I believe I mentioned it would "class with tube framed race cars. I believe a cage is required in ST as well.

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