Lightning Lap 2024 - DH edges Mach 1 by .2 sec

[Galvez1978]

Well lets be honest. The S650 is basically just version 2.0 of the S550 anyway. Not a ton changed (or needed to). Plus it's hard to improve on something that had so much right to begin with. One of these days they'll figure out how to trim some weight off the Mustang though.

Except it's not. That's just lies marketing tells themselves so they can sleep at night. It's just a s550.3

Mach1 and Dark Horse same car with different dress.

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[Galvez1978]

My S550 highly modded is 1 second or so slower than a Cayman 718 GTS. On same tires I'm on par with stock M1's lap time wise. This on a 2km track. So the GT3 must be much faster than a Mach 1.

An example:

 

[saleen367]

An example:

"This is a short clip from a video by AverageRob (the mustache guy). They we’re able to both get pretty close to 41 sec (still few seconds off) after getting some tips from the pro. The pro did put in the 41 sec lap in just one go, but I was amazed how much faster Arno and Rob went with some instructions and motivation by the pro. They’re goal is to drive a F4 car."


I think Lightning Laps is a fun "test", one we don't get to see often, especially as fan's of HPDE, TT, etc. Scientific? Nah, probably not, but I don't think they are out to skew the results or play favorites either. I think they do their best with the tools they are given to give the best lap times possible. I'd like to see an ambient temperature reading at the time of the lap and how many hot laps were on the tires. Having said that, sometimes I think more information just gives people more reasons to argue the results.

I know a lot of people keep arguing, same day, same driver. I get it, but at the same time, all the 4-5 staff drivers get cross checked on timed laps and they take the fastest lap over the 3 days. Beard had the fastest lap in the DH, the Mach 1 from 2022 and the GT500 in 2020. The GT350R was driven by Tony Quiroga who has 12 years and 2000 laps @ VIR and the PP2 was driven by Eric Tingwall. Beard obviously has a liking to the Mustangs since he's had the 3 fastest laps there driving them for C & D. These guys are good drivers, not some schmucks from the friday night lawnmower races.

After all, how many here on this board, can say they've run a sub 3 minute lap @ VIR Grand in a bone stock Mustang?

These cars are all very close, which is just fine by me.

 

[Hack]

I just LOVE how GT350 owners get triggered by anything comparable to their venerable GT350s outperforms their Mustangs.

The GT350 is not a Ferrari. The GT350 is not a Corvette. The GT350 is not a McClaren. It is a Mustang with an imbalanced Voodoo engine that slowly rattles itself to death.

And "same same day"?



17:09

6 years, same day.... pretty much doesn't matter, right?

I'm not sure why you are so upset about this. I didn't say anything negative about the Mach 1. I also didn't say the GT350 is a Ferrari/Corvette/McLaren. I just wanted an actual comparison of the two cars based on your statement "out performs by a respectable margin".

I fully admit the Mach 1 might be faster than the GT350R. Since it makes less power, weighs more and the brakes aren't as good, if the Mach is faster it's probably mostly aero improvements... which is great. I would love to see a back to back test of the two cars. And throw in the Dark Horse too. I've seen in the back to back test on Throttle House the Dark Horse was more than a second a lap faster than the Mach 1 on their small track.

edit: by the way, I don't own a GT350.

 

[Charlemagne]

Except it's not. That's just lies marketing tells themselves so they can sleep at night. It's just a s550.3

Indeed. If they wanted more power, they would have added a turbo or AWD, like everyone else, right? But that is definitely not what people want. Stripping weight significantly is probably not possible either.

People just forget, compare power with previous gens of 5.0 mustangs. Power wars spiralled to a point where any more gains are only marginal (especially in a battle with emissions). N/A and RWD is really the old world, accept it for what it is.

 

[mavisky]

The previously tested 2021 Mach 1 with Handling Package was a manual. The 2024 Dark Horse with Handling Package was an automatic. Shouldn't the automatic be expected to be significantly faster?

In a straight line, maybe but they said in the article that the auto put them in weird gears at times especially with it overheating.

Shouldn't the Pirelli P Zero Trofeo RS tires be an advantage over the Mach 1 non-R Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2s?

They're listed at the same 180 treadwear as Cup 2's are so are likely about the same. In the video they talk about how they lacked the overall grip of the Cup 2's, but were more consistent.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...dewall=Blackwall&partnum=03YR9P0TRS&tab=Sizes

Shouldn't the rear Brembos on the Dark Horse be an advantage?

Not a ton of rear brake being used to get much of a difference

Why is the Dark Horse so slow? Is the 20 extra hp more than offset by 200 extra lbs?

Not so much. 20 hp may make up for it in a straight line, but that extra power doesn't do you any good at all in braking and cornering. Ford's improved their braking on the Dark Horse over the Mach 1 and have tuned the suspension as best they could to get the make up for the weight, but the car is still having to account for that mass.

 

[Rhyanski]

Indeed. If they wanted more power, they would have added a turbo or AWD, like everyone else, right? But that is definitely not what people want. Stripping weight significantly is probably not possible either.

People just forget, compare power with previous gens of 5.0 mustangs. Power wars spiralled to a point where any more gains are only marginal (especially in a battle with emissions). N/A and RWD is really the old world, accept it for what it is.

Love your comment, at actually this is one of those things people can't appreciate or digest. I've always said - there are faster, more powerful, more slick or shiny, more... whatever cars, but there's one thing they're not and will never be - a Mustang. Now, I love the M1 for what it is, rough, heavy, it is meant to be driven and tamed. If you don't like that, then it's not your car. Dark horse has a legacy it needs to overcome to become an icon, and this is not an easy task, because it is going to be compared to everything before it - GT350's, Machs,Bosses, SVO's, you name it, yet it builds on top of that legacy, and I think it is for good.
Is it possible to shed weight? - Sure, add the modern composite materials in the BMWs and it will shed at least 100-150 kilos, but will gain a 30-50K markup. To me price-wise, especially being in Europe, the mustang is probably the best evolution of a naturally aspirated, powerful and beautiful accessible car.

 

[mavisky]

The Throttle House video is a good one. Shows where the DH stands in relation to others like the M2, SS1LE, etc. It is the HP so it’s on the Trofeo R tires.

Handling package gets 180 treadwear Trofeo RS tires, not the 60 treadwear Trofeo R tires. Massive difference. Equivalent to Cup 2's not Cup 2 R's.

https://www.motor1.com/news/677360/dark-horse-pagani-utopia-pirelli/

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=P+Zero+Trofeo+RS&isSEO=true

 

[AZ_Ryan]

Indeed. If they wanted more power, they would have added a turbo or AWD, like everyone else, right? But that is definitely not what people want. Stripping weight significantly is probably not possible either.

People just forget, compare power with previous gens of 5.0 mustangs. Power wars spiralled to a point where any more gains are only marginal (especially in a battle with emissions). N/A and RWD is really the old world, accept it for what it is.

And with 2 major competitors going away, there's less incentive to keep up the HP arms race.

 

[ShadesOfBloo]

...People just forget, compare power with previous gens of 5.0 mustangs. Power wars spiraled to a point where any more gains are only marginal (especially in a battle with emissions). N/A and RWD is really the old world, accept it for what it is.

Oh, I remember the Mustang crowd bragging about having 225hp.
I remember the 1993 Mustang GT getting downrated to 205hp and 280 lb-ft right before I graduated high school.

The 1993 GT didn't get any slower. People who thought a Mustang GT was fast still thought so.
Now, if I couldn't beat a 1993 GT with a 2023 4-banger, my driving is bad and I would feel bad.

 

[Charlemagne]

Absolutely. I think that 400 rwhp N/A V8 car is a blessing. What's better, really? 6.2L Corvette perhaps, but that's something else entirely. Unicorns all of them (for sure outside of USA) and no competition at all anymore.

 

[Hack]

Indeed. If they wanted more power, they would have added a turbo or AWD, like everyone else, right? But that is definitely not what people want. Stripping weight significantly is probably not possible either.

The best way to get more power is to increase the displacement. Keep the engine reliable and just make it a 6 liter or larger instead of a tiny little 5 liter. Don't try so hard to wring more from a small engine until it becomes fragile. The actual physical size of the engine doesn't have to get a lot larger to do that. Just a couple inches here and there.

Even without a power change, if Ford engineers could have just kept the weight the same as the GT350 around 3700 lbs instead of over 4000 lbs I would have loved it. I understand big brakes and cooling are not light, but they did it with the GT350. No reason to make the S650 so much heavier.

Keeping the same platform they could have still made the car a little smaller to keep the weight down. It would have reduced drag and improved all around performance plus better fuel economy. Winning in every way. Just getting to 3600 or 3650 rather than over 4000 would have been a huge win and a big improvement in the Mustang S650.

To me, sticky tires are the worst way to make a car look good. It's just what the Camaro 1LE had. I realize quite a few people are fooled by it, but over time people realize what the car really is. It's great that Ford resisted the temptation to go that way for quite a while, but now it seems they are all-in on that strategy.

One other thing I wanted to say about lap times separated by a year or more. I bet that Motortrend's drivers get a lot of practice. They have probably improved their driving skills in the last 6-8 years.

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