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Tune+

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and from the little amount ive seen the car seems to have a safer A/F ratio at WOT then 3/4 throttle.

idiot car is trying to hold 14:1 ratio at 17lbs boost until I tip a bit further and hit the floor then 12:1
I don't understand why you keep commenting with this. I have addressed your concern 3 times now and tried to educate you so you understand why this is.
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Tune+

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Impulsed7

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older turbo Nissans/Toyotas dont have this problem. you can load them up at 2500rpm regardless of gear and they wont pre-ignite themselves to death, stock or properly tuned/modified.

the fact that I can make my stock vehicle ping/knock by driving it a certain way means either the car is not tuned properly from the factory, OR it is a GDI trait that requires the driver to be mindful of its nature which negates your paragraph rant.
Plenty of older cars would have had this if the turbo's had been as responsive and efficient as modern cars, you compare old tech to new like this, so lets point out a few things. First, they came from the factory with laggy old school turbos that made power in the upper rpms, so A: really hard to get pre-ignition at low rpms. Second, they ran pig rich because emissions wasn't so tough back then and engine management wasn't so advanced. Third, the car is designed to get as close to stoich as possible to get the best power/emissions per unit of fuel, and only goes rich once an ignition or temperature problem is noticed by the stock ecu, again, also normal for any new motor nowadays. Fourth (kinda), put a tiny, tiny, turbo on a RB26 and boost the hell out of it at 1800rpm and tell me they wouldn't have pre-ignition. O sure, there are ways around it with the tune... argument ended. Also, get a manual trans and pick your own gear?
 

show7ime

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I am curious about these blown engines...

Have the blown engines come from manual or auto Mustangs?


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Glenn G

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Plenty of older cars would have had this if the turbo's had been as responsive and efficient as modern cars, you compare old tech to new like this, so lets point out a few things. First, they came from the factory with laggy old school turbos that made power in the upper rpms, so A: really hard to get pre-ignition at low rpms. Second, they ran pig rich because emissions wasn't so tough back then and engine management wasn't so advanced. Third, the car is designed to get as close to stoich as possible to get the best power/emissions per unit of fuel, and only goes rich once an ignition or temperature problem is noticed by the stock ecu, again, also normal for any new motor nowadays. Fourth (kinda), put a tiny, tiny, turbo on a RB26 and boost the hell out of it at 1800rpm and tell me they wouldn't have pre-ignition. O sure, there are ways around it with the tune... argument ended. Also, get a manual trans and pick your own gear?
Absolutely - A quick spooling turbo will munch an RB- I've done it on an RB25DET swapping the Stock turbo for a twin scroll Garrett ball bearing Disco potato.
Went Wot in 5th at 2000 RPM not expecting the boost to hit that fast, It knocked so hard in an instant it melted #1 and #6 and bowed the rods.
Fortunately the block was salvageable but took an almost 1.5mm overbore.

A quick spooling turbo and super long gears are a good recipe for fuel economy but also for disaster for people without mechanical sympathy.

It is really not hard to take care of this motor! if you are in 5th or 6th and below 3k rpm just down shift 1 gear for moderate acceleration. Heavy acceleration in 5th or 6th below 4 k is plain stupid, what are you trying to do at this point, save gas?

The only time you should EVER be WOT in 6th is at 140mph which is about 4k RPM, that's it.

Seriously it's like a marathon runner riding a 10 speed bike up a hill and dropping it a few gears because he's strong enough to keep going in top gear, then blaming the bike manufacturer when he blows out his quads from the effort.

Lugging an NA motor is not really good for it either, I have been told this my whole life and people don't generally do it because the performance sucks. Just because the GTDI motors have the power to do it didn't make it all right over night.

Does any want want Ford to put another nanny on the car? Like maybe something that holds the waste-gate open below 3k in high gear? Next it will be called a design flaw you were caught speeding because it can do more than 70mph!
 

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Mr981

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Being a new EB owner, I've been following this thread with interest.

We have a manual and I don't crack the throttle much when running in top gears under 2500 rpm. I down shift to fifth if I want to pass on the highway--just like any other small displacement engine.

We have a friend looking to buy a EB with an automatic; not an aggressive driver, but I'm sure when they want to pass at highway speeds, they,ll put their foot in it.
I'm not familiar at all with the auto tranny--quick shifting or sluggish?
I'd think the more responsive the auto tranny is to throttle inputs it might mitigate this detonation issue with quick downshifts when needed, rather than lugging in top gear during the transition.
 
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l2frankie

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How much highway passing power do you guys really need?
 

speedfrk

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Being a new EB owner, I've been following this thread with interest.

We have a manual and I don't crack the throttle much when running in top gears under 2500 rpm. I down shift to fifth if I want to pass on the highway--just like any other small displacement engine.

We have a friend looking to buy a EB with an automatic; not an aggressive driver, but I'm sure when they want to pass at highway speeds, they,ll put their foot in it.
I'm not familiar at all with the auto tranny--quick shifting or sluggish?
I'd think the more responsive the auto tranny is to throttle inputs it might mitigate this detonation issue with quick downshifts when needed, rather than lugging in top gear during the transition.
My car downshifts very quickly on the hwy and the paddle shifters also work well. Tell your friend to get 3.31 or 3.55 gears. The autos usually come with 3.15 but they are annoying in normal driving since the car will shift into 6th at 45mph and lug the engine. I'm constantly downshifting with the paddles during city driving.
 

Edkiefer

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I am curious about these blown engines...

Have the blown engines come from manual or auto Mustangs?


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I think both has happened, I saw comments that the auto doesn't downshift fast enough and it tries to get to high gear fast for eco reasons.

This is my take on it, everything is a compromise .
The manufacture is trying to make the lightest engine with tightest tolerances to get best mileage an emissions .
On down side you got a 4 cylinder trying to support close to same TQ/HP(maybe even lower rpm) than a V8.
So each rod/piston/cylinder has great load on it for longer time at low rpms.
Anything that goes off spec as far as ignition timing from things like high intake air temps , hot spots in cylinder, lean mixtures etc might cause detonation so engine ECU needs to be fast to respond (pull timing) .

That said, I really think they should of went with forged pistons and maybe slightly beefier rods at least on mustang and RS as they are geared for performance .
Now would that stop the damage, no but it probably would stop grenade type damage that happens, and could probably handle a little bit more detonation than cast pistons, I don't know what type alloy they used in the pistons.
 

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Mr981

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My car downshifts very quickly on the hwy and the paddle shifters also work well. Tell your friend to get 3.31 or 3.55 gears. The autos usually come with 3.15 but they are annoying in normal driving since the car will shift into 6th at 45mph and lug the engine. I'm constantly downshifting with the paddles during city driving.
Does the automatic have a sport mode that gooses the throttle and keeps it in lower gears longer? 6th gear at 45 mph is great for mileage but the motor will probably be turning 1500 rpm or less?
 

Glenn G

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I think both has happened, I saw comments that the auto doesn't downshift fast enough and it tries to get to high gear fast for eco reasons.

This is my take on it, everything is a compromise .
The manufacture is trying to make the lightest engine with tightest tolerances to get best mileage an emissions .
On down side you got a 4 cylinder trying to support close to same TQ/HP(maybe even lower rpm) than a V8.
So each rod/piston/cylinder has great load on it for longer time at low rpms.
Anything that goes off spec as far as ignition timing from things like high intake air temps , hot spots in cylinder, lean mixtures etc might cause detonation so engine ECU needs to be fast to respond (pull timing) .

That said, I really think they should of went with forged pistons and maybe slightly beefier rods at least on mustang and RS as they are geared for performance .
Now would that stop the damage, no but it probably would stop grenade type damage that happens, and could probably handle a little bit more detonation than cast pistons, I don't know what type alloy they used in the pistons.
They used a Hypereutectic aluminum alloy piston with a silicon content of 16-19%,there are alot of advantages to this alloy, By adding silicon to the piston's alloy, the piston expansion is dramatically reduced. This allows engineers to specify a much tighter cold-play between the piston and the cylinder liner which reduces wear and emissions. Silicon itself expands less than aluminum, but it also acts as an insulator to prevent the aluminum from absorbing as much of the operational heat as it otherwise would. Another benefit of adding silicon is that the piston becomes harder and is less susceptible to scuffing which can occur when a soft aluminum piston is cold-revved in a relatively dry cylinder on start-up or during abnormally high operating temperatures. An engine with hypereutectic pistons will therefore have a much longer service life than a forged piston engine.

The biggest drawback of adding silicon to pistons is that the piston becomes more brittle as the ratio of silicon to aluminum is increased. This makes the piston more susceptible to cracking if the engine experiences pre-ignition or detonation. Which is why LSPI or "super knock" shatters the piston.

While hypereutectic pistons can be forged, it is very difficult and expensive to do so. Most Forged pistons are 4032 alloy or 11% silicon and expand alot more meaning looser clearances and piston slap when cold but are more resistant to detonation.

Ultra high performance 2618 alloy has 2% silicon and can survive lots of detonation, the expansion ratio is so high however, that you need a large cold tolerance so you will have excessive blow by and piston slap on cold start, an engine made with these will likely need to be rebuilt before 50 to 60 000 miles, probably far less if it sees frequent cold starts and short trips (i.e. a daily driver)
 

Kjewer1

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I understand why they did it, but it's still a damn shame that the pistons are so brittle. Even if the pistons and rods held up though, LSPI would still be hammering the bearings out. And it's possible that does happen to some degree, if LSPI can happen to a less catastrophic degree, one which the pistons and rods can handle. I don't know if it does. This would be my first suspect in cases of rod bearings going out for no obvious reason. Hasn't that happened to some people here?
 

04SloSnake

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While this is an issue, it isn't new. Does anyone remember the Zoom Zoom Boom club from the Mazdaspeed world? I also see a lot of people talking about it only being a DI turbo 4 problem but it also existed for the 03/04 Cobra crowd so this is just a motorsports problem. This is just the flavor of the week when it comes to world ending problems of the EB.

Remember when the world was ending because of a smoking issue with a new downpipe?

Remember when the world was ending because of a random misfire check engine light?

Remember when the world was ending because of a heat shield recall?

I highly recommend people taking a deep breath and drink a beer when browsing this forum because it just seems to stress some people out.
 

Kjewer1

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It's a real problem that does exist, even if it only affects <1% of people that own these cars. No harm in learning more about it. ;)
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