Gen3 NA Build - Speed Density Conversion & Tuning

[deanm11]

I'm not certain how quickly I will work on this but I"m going to switch my Comp Cams / Holley low-ram build over to speed density. I've heard enough good things from Boschma and WoodburnGT that I want to see what all the hype is about. I have the "conversion harness" en route to me now. The harness is a Shoemaker product and interestingly, it is no longer on the Shoemaker tuning website at this time.

I heard there is a way to do this on HP tuners but would this only be with a Custom OS? I am self tuned on HP tuners. I have PCMTec but have not used it. I'd love any input and I will also share anything I learn here.

I had plumbed a GM map sensor into my AC pressure circuit and logged data in some attempt to tune my VE in the past. I'm not sure how the conversion harness plumbs in the MAP sensor. I don't believe the stock OS is going to be able to be edited directly to see a real MAP sensor (Rather than its inferred MAP), regardless of where it is wired.

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[engineermike]

Subscribing. I'm very interested in this because it's the only "correct" way to make the Ford throttle control logic work with a PD blower.

The route I was going was to pull a Roush OS off of PCMTec's library and inject it, while also installing the necessary Roush harness and sensors.

I suspect the MAF is hard-coded into the Mustang logic, so it wouldn’t be switchable in the tuning even though there is a map sensor switch.

 

[NGOT8R]

I'm not certain how quickly I will work on this but I"m going to switch my Comp Cams / Holley low-ram build over to speed density. I've heard enough good things from Boschma and WoodburnGT that I want to see what all the hype is about. I have the "conversion harness" en route to me now. The harness is a Shoemaker product and interestingly, it is no longer on the Shoemaker tuning website at this time.

I heard there is a way to do this on HP tuners but would this only be with a Custom OS? I am self tuned on HP tuners. I have PCMTec but have not used it. I'd love any input and I will also share anything I learn here.

I had plumbed a GM map sensor into my AC pressure circuit and logged data in some attempt to tune my VE in the past. I'm not sure how the conversion harness plumbs in the MAP sensor. I don't believe the stock OS is going to be able to be edited directly to see a real MAP sensor (Rather than its inferred MAP), regardless of where it is wired.

I just watched the tutorial on this in the Evans Performance Academy Gen. 3 Coyote training course. I also discovered that VMP makes a plug and play MAP sensor harness that plugs into the IMRC harness. Did the A/C pressure sensor harness not work well enough for you?

Did you tune from scratch or tweak an existing map? I’m trying to get this stuff down pat myself, as I will also be tuning my car.

 

[deanm11]

My tuning is from scratch. I got some good input @engineermike like many along the way. My mistakes and misunderstandings are my own! I got great input particularly with his experience in simpler/smaller number of mapped points and distance tables.

The harness is due here Saturday. I'll post pictures and we'll see if it puts the MAP into the IRMC or not. There has to be custom OS involved of some kind. I got reliable input into the AC circuit. I had trouble interpreting the data but I think it worked fine. No way to make the stock OS address what it's seeing. I have a GM sensor and 5v regulator.

 

[engineermike]

Page 21 and 22 showing the Roush wiring diagram to incorporate the MAP sensor, with the signal going to the IMRC connectors.
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Page 30 has a very small amount of pinout information:
422184.pdf

 

[deanm11]

Do we think ECM 44204 Master enable/disable for MAP sensor has any hope or working in hpt?

Edit: Work on this had been attempted unsuccessfully. I'm the last two posts on this thread:

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthread.php?70749-Wiring-a-GT500-MAP-Sensor-into-Coyote-Harness

 

[geddys]

Its simply using Roush OS as base OS. Only benefit of MAP conversion is just getting better idle with OTR intake, beside that I dont see any other benefits over MAF, which will be better at WOT with OTR as it will measure increased airflow at high vehicle speeds

 

[robvas]

Its simply using Roush OS as base OS. Only benefit of MAP conversion is just getting better idle with OTR intake, beside that I dont see any other benefits over MAF, which will be better at WOT with OTR as it will measure increased airflow at high vehicle speeds

The Predator engine vehicles and F150's all run MAP don't they?

 

[engineermike]

The Predator engine vehicles and F150's all run MAP don't they?

All ecoboost are map. There are lots of advantages dealing with dynamics. If you saw the math that goes on your head would explode. The maf doesn’t work well with plenum dynamics so they do lots of math to try to compensate for it.

 

[geddys]

The Predator engine vehicles and F150's all run MAP don't they?

Yes, but then you need to consider also transmission

 

[robvas]

All ecoboost are map. There are lots of advantages dealing with dynamics. If you saw the math that goes on your head would explode. The maf doesn’t work well with plenum dynamics so they do lots of math to try to compensate for it.

Right, and the OEM does it that way for advantages that have nothing to do with OTR intakes like the poster was saying

I'm just brought those up because they are Coyotes though.

 

[deanm11]

I just watched the tutorial on this in the Evans Performance Academy Gen. 3 Coyote training course. I also discovered that VMP makes a plug and play MAP sensor harness that plugs into the IMRC harness. Did the A/C pressure sensor harness not work well enough for you?

Did you tune from scratch or tweak an existing map? I’m trying to get this stuff down pat myself, as I will also be tuning my car.

Have you confirmed VMP has this harness? I don't see it on their site or anywhere. Here is the harness I received. Not sure where the red pin/power source is supposed to come from. With my GM MAP sensor I had to use a 5V regulator. I believe Roush uses Ford MAP sensors.

I confirmed Shoemaker stopped selling their kit in Instagram comments to the post where he announced the kit (which also included sensor and MAF bock off) He simply said maybe we'll offer it again. Strange, what is he using for his customers? The harness I got was suppsoed to be Shoemaker's but a full solution would connect to the MAF sensor with a harness to a new temperature sensor since our cars get the temp from the MAF otherwise. Harness to the IRMC gives me the possibility of using a Roush OS I think.

 

[NGOT8R]

Have you confirmed VMP has this harness? I don't see it on their site or anywhere. Here is the harness I received. Not sure where the red pin/power source is supposed to come from. With my GM MAP sensor I had to use a 5V regulator. I believe Roush uses Ford MAP sensors.

I confirmed Shoemaker stopped selling their kit in Instagram comments to the post where he announced the kit (which also included sensor and MAF bock off) He simply said maybe we'll offer it again. Strange, what is he using for his customers? The harness I got was suppsoed to be Shoemaker's but a full solution would connect to the MAF sensor with a harness to a new temperature sensor since our cars get the temp from the MAF otherwise. Harness to the IRMC gives me the possibility of using a Roush OS I think.

I haven’t confirmed, I just saw this link to it.

https://www.vmpperformance.com/VMP-Predator-swap-MAP-harness

Jeff Evan’s (Evans Performance Academy Gen. 3 Coyote tuning course) also shows how to make one using the A/C pressure sensor harness. He uses a GM MAP sensor that he said he’s vetted to be accurate.

 

[deanm11]

Ah, ok I did see that too, thank you. I couldn't confirm whether the output was intended for the IRMC connector or not. I see a Ford MAP can provide IAT.. just is it easier to send that signal to the "normal" place in the S550 harness or not.

I think my GM MAP setup was accurate. I just am less confident it can be easy to integrate with available OSs...

 

[engineermike]

The VMP harness appears to just use the MCT temp from the MAP sensor (T-MAP) to get the signal into the PCM. It's not a SD conversion by any stretch. It even has a wire for logging boost because it doesn't feed into the PCM.

I'm not sure how the Shoemaker harness works or what it even connects to. There are no details about how it's supposed to work or what OS it goes with.

At the moment, the lead case seems to be the Roush OS. You can pick a stock Roush OS from PCMTec's library and install it in other cars by merging the VIN and OSID. The Roush harness needed is part number 1318-12B579. It requires a TOP and correct MAP sensor, which I can get part numbers for. For NA, TOP and MAP are technically the same thing but you can't just leave one out because the logic will look for both. You might need an MCT sensor for NA as well but it will be the same as IAT.

If anyone knows how to do this with the stock MAF OS, I'd love to hear how. I believe it's hard-coded though. Maybe a patch could switch it from MAFS to SPDEN. Someone was posting a while back about being able to make logic changes and I don't think this is a difficult one. Who remembers what forum member that was?

Otherwise, who's going to be the first to try the Roush route?

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