E85 vs 93 Wengerd Northside Indianapolis

[Wengerd Performance]

On a NA gen 3 coyote on good 93 you will see a total of around 28 degrees of spark with knock advance.


Adding e85 and running 32 degrees will not be a big differnce in that case. When you really feel E85 gains is if you are on lower octane 93/91 and only running your average 22-23 degrees

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[sdskinner73]

On a NA gen 3 coyote on good 93 you will see a total of around 28 degrees of spark with knock advance.


Adding e85 and running 32 degrees will not be a big differnce in that case. When you really feel E85 gains is if you are on lower octane 93/91 and only running your average 22-23 degrees

Thanks! Appreciate all the quick responses as well. Will try the other tunes this weekend!

 

[Unas2k5]

@engineermike what are your thoughts ?

 

[engineermike]

Would need to see a detailed log to know for sure what’s going on, but I can’t imagine even the worst quality e85 having more knock resistance than the best quality 93. Also a lot depends on how the tune is set up, like how the timing is delivered. I set my e85 tunes up to run mbt all the time but a lot of commercial tuners still run on borderline and let knock advance add, which delays the additional power.

 

[ZXMustang]

Would need to see a detailed log to know for sure what’s going on, but I can’t imagine even the worst quality e85 having more knock resistance than the best quality 93. Also a lot depends on how the tune is set up, like how the timing is delivered. I set my e85 tunes up to run mbt all the time but a lot of commercial tuners still run on borderline and let knock advance add, which delays the additional power.

You do WHAT???? You must explain your logic here. how you achieve this and why? MBT should be 2-3 degrees above your borderline tables if you aren't using the adders. And cylinder pressure limit is your hard emergency cap. Pushing out static spark with MBT is basically disabling the ford OEM spark logic and either hoping the knock sensors catch it in time or who knows what.

Id want to see borderline being the spark source with -1 to -2 degrees being supplemented in to advance. And if everything goes south, CPL table will catch it. If I see +KR at all, I've done my job incorrectly.

At that point you'd need to adjust all the rate/rate fast shifting and shifting fast KR ramp ins to get you back to a happy place if you see +KR. I guess everyone can and does do it differently, but I like to preserve OEM logic where ever I can and work with it rather than disable or work against it by just blanket static setting things. There is a right way, a wrong way and just about every else's way to tune these. Is my way the "right way", I dont know but Im not shitting on the ford logic for fueling or spark. Just scaling everything up with it to preserve the OEM calibration magic while taking advantage of better air and fuel octane.

I do shit on their logic for trans. Their Ford trans logic is dogshit.

 

[sdskinner73]

You do WHAT???? You must explain your logic here. how you achieve this and why? MBT should be 2-3 degrees above your borderline tables if you aren't using the adders. And cylinder pressure limit is your hard emergency cap. Pushing out static spark with MBT is basically disabling the ford OEM spark logic and either hoping the knock sensors catch it in time or who knows what.

Id want to see borderline being the spark source with -1 to -2 degrees being supplemented in to advance. And if everything goes south, CPL table will catch it. If I see +KR at all, I've done my job incorrectly.

At that point you'd need to adjust all the rate/rate fast shifting and shifting fast KR ramp ins to get you back to a happy place if you see +KR. I guess everyone can and does do it differently, but I like to preserve OEM logic where ever I can and work with it rather than disable or work against it by just blanket static setting things. There is a right way, a wrong way and just about every else's way to tune these. Is my way the "right way", I dont know but Im not shitting on the ford logic for fueling or spark. Just scaling everything up with it to preserve the OEM calibration magic while taking advantage of better air and fuel octane.

I do shit on their logic for trans. Their Ford trans logic is dogshit.

Can’t speak on most of this lol but totally agree on the trans logic. That was the biggest reason I got a tune.

 

[5.0_Lojos]

I’m N/A. The problem is that the E85 closer to stock. It’s not a real improvement, besides the trans not jerking on downshifts. I suspect it’s fuel quality. I ordered testing tubes. Will test the two places I would use. Also datalog. And see if I can upload that here for those who asked.

Cool, much luck I am also tuned by Wengerd as most here just get with him with any concerns and also consider the supporting mods that would help. Once u go boost the dynamics of the car is ridiculous 🫡 welcome to the big black hole called the "money pit"

 

[sdskinner73]

Cool, much luck I am also tuned by Wengerd as most here just get with him with any concerns and also consider the supporting mods that would help. Once u go boost the dynamics of the car is ridiculous 🫡 welcome to the big black hole called the "money pit"

For sure. I have a photo of my first post when I bought a v6 during covid. “No, I don’t really modify. I’m gonna keep it stock.” Then came stimulus checks I didn’t need. Got an exhaust 2 weeks later

 

[5.0_Lojos]

For sure. I have a photo of my first post when I bought a v6 during covid. “No, I don’t really modify. I’m gonna keep it stock.” Then came stimulus checks I didn’t need. Got an exhaust 2 weeks later

U r not alone. I swore to never upgrade to e85 via a fuel system for many reasons... It was a short lived promise

 

[engineermike]

You do WHAT???? You must explain your logic here. how you achieve this and why?

To be clear, when I say run MBT all the time, what I mean is that it never runs on Borderline when on E85. I still use spark timing TR, cyl pressure, etc. for the same reasons you stated. The point of contention likely is whether or not you ever get legitimate knock when on E85. I say definitely not, and I have lots of reasons why. The stock NA gen3 can run just a few deg below MBT on 93 octane, meaning you just need about 96-98 octane to achieve MBT. E85 effective octane in a GDI engine is more like 130 +/-. We can even run our supercharged coyotes at MBT at 18 psi boost, which more or less proves you can run MBT all the time without knock. I've heard people claim to see KR when their E85 is low quality but I've never seen data that supported that. Even E50 has an effective octane of over 125 in these cars. Greg Banish discussed this in one of his videos. I have seen false knock across a few cars, but it's typically in the same 1500-2000 rpm and .3-.5 load range.

I actually got the idea from Ford, who set up the 2018 CJ just like this. The Borderline tables are all set to 55 deg because on the recommended fuel (C16) they never expect to experience knock.

MBT should be 2-3 degrees above your borderline tables if you aren't using the adders.

That depends, though. If we look at a stock 2020 Mustang GT calibration at some random mapped point, at light loads and low speeds, MBT and BLK are almost the same but at high loads and speeds there could be 20 deg difference. A GT500, with its lower compression, can have BLK 25 deg higher than MBT, and it stays higher past 1.0 load in some instances!

One of the cool features in PCMTech is that you can log the result of the Borderline, MBT, and Cyl Pressure timing calculations, and plot them all on top of each other along with actual timing. It's interesting to watch BLK and MBT hover around each other, and actual timing wander between the two when MBT is higher, or cap at MBT or Cyl Press.

Pushing out static spark with MBT is basically disabling the ford OEM spark logic and either hoping the knock sensors catch it in time or who knows what. ....I like to preserve OEM logic where ever I can and work with it rather than disable or work against it by just blanket static setting things...Im not shitting on the ford logic for fueling or spark.

Not sure what you're referring to as "static spark", but I'm definitely not "disabling" Ford's OEM spark logic. I'm just setting BLK much higher such that it rides MBT instead, when on E85. In fact, I would argue that I'm using more of Ford's logic than most. PCMTech defines probably 3x more F150 Flex Fuel tables than HPT, so I've seeked out as many as I could find and applied the OEM FFV F150 settings to the Mustang. I leave the knock sensors active, obviously, even on E85.

Id want to see borderline being the spark source with -1 to -2 degrees being supplemented in to advance.

On pump gas, absolutely. I actually cap my knock advance at 2 deg and set the BLK tables up such that even with the 2 deg added it still doesn't knock.

I do shit on their logic for trans. Their Ford trans logic is dogshit.

What logic are you defeating in the transmission?

 

[ZXMustang]

To be clear, when I say run MBT all the time, what I mean is that it never runs on Borderline when on E85. I still use spark timing TR, cyl pressure, etc. for the same reasons you stated. The point of contention likely is whether or not you ever get legitimate knock when on E85. I say definitely not, and I have lots of reasons why. The stock NA gen3 can run just a few deg below MBT on 93 octane, meaning you just need about 96-98 octane to achieve MBT. E85 effective octane in a GDI engine is more like 130 +/-. We can even run our supercharged coyotes at MBT at 18 psi boost, which more or less proves you can run MBT all the time without knock. I've heard people claim to see KR when their E85 is low quality but I've never seen data that supported that. Even E50 has an effective octane of over 125 in these cars. Greg Banish discussed this in one of his videos. I have seen false knock across a few cars, but it's typically in the same 1500-2000 rpm and .3-.5 load range.

I actually got the idea from Ford, who set up the 2018 CJ just like this. The Borderline tables are all set to 55 deg because on the recommended fuel (C16) they never expect to experience knock.



That depends, though. If we look at a stock 2020 Mustang GT calibration at some random mapped point, at light loads and low speeds, MBT and BLK are almost the same but at high loads and speeds there could be 20 deg difference. A GT500, with its lower compression, can have BLK 25 deg higher than MBT, and it stays higher past 1.0 load in some instances!

One of the cool features in PCMTech is that you can log the result of the Borderline, MBT, and Cyl Pressure timing calculations, and plot them all on top of each other along with actual timing. It's interesting to watch BLK and MBT hover around each other, and actual timing wander between the two when MBT is higher, or cap at MBT or Cyl Press.



Not sure what you're referring to as "static spark", but I'm definitely not "disabling" Ford's OEM spark logic. I'm just setting BLK much higher such that it rides MBT instead, when on E85. In fact, I would argue that I'm using more of Ford's logic than most. PCMTech defines probably 3x more F150 Flex Fuel tables than HPT, so I've seeked out as many as I could find and applied the OEM FFV F150 settings to the Mustang. I leave the knock sensors active, obviously, even on E85.



On pump gas, absolutely. I actually cap my knock advance at 2 deg and set the BLK tables up such that even with the 2 deg added it still doesn't knock.



What logic are you defeating in the transmission?

I can agree with most of what you said. But at times where bnk to mbt delta is huge, that’s where you as a calibrator need to be able to tighten those deltas up by either lowering mbt or raising bnk. That also ties in with the corresponding VCT schedule and angles.

and for the trans logic, RPM shift anticipation and tq based shift scheduling. Those need to be disabled and controlled manually with common sense up and down shift schedules which we (I) do very well. Add In our TCC lockup and slip changes as well as all sorts of tq management and shift pressure changes and you end up with the Cadillac of transmission shift habits.

 

[engineermike]

...But at times where bnk to mbt delta is huge, that’s where you as a calibrator need to be able to tighten those deltas up by either lowering mbt or raising bnk. ..

I see no reason to minimize this delta...it is what it is. Ford has these two very far apart sometimes (25+ deg), and for good reason. MBT is a physical characteristic that should not be changed without basis, not simply because BLK is far away. The only reason I see to ever move MBT is if you have found OEM MBT to be incorrect on a dyno or with some other basis from the OEM.

FWIW PCMTec has all the torque-based shift scheduling tables defined so, if you dare, you can make that work to your liking. I, too, take the easy way out on this one and just defeat it.

 

[ZXMustang]

I see no reason to minimize this delta...it is what it is. Ford has these two very far apart sometimes (25+ deg), and for good reason. MBT is a physical characteristic that should not be changed without basis, not simply because BLK is far away. The only reason I see to ever move MBT is if you have found OEM MBT to be incorrect on a dyno or with some other basis from the OEM.

FWIW PCMTec has all the torque-based shift scheduling tables defined so, if you dare, you can make that work to your liking. I, too, take the easy way out on this one and just defeat it.

I always take the cautious route with bnk to MBT and let the adders fill in the gaps when the deltas are big. I agree about MBT, but again those can and should be adjusted as needed. And usually I get finite like that for “race” tunes that are primarily for track use when octane is carefully monitored. Either by using premade blends or drum e85R something like that.

but again I agree for the most part with you. And no two tuners will do everything the same. We mostly tune by experience and mine differs for yours I’m sure. 90% of my experience is all remote tuning with only logs and driver feedback to work from. Rarely do I get to validate anything on a dyno. But these days it’s almost unnecessary to do so.

but I do appreciate your expertise and experience and my initial shock was based on the assumption you were blanket changing spark and forcing MBT. I get what you’re doing now but maybe the wording confused me.

all I know though, is my customers are happy and their cars are both safe and fast. And yes you can have both lol.

 

[robvas]

@engineermike link to some Banish videos that you think are worth watching?

 

[engineermike]

@engineermike link to some Banish videos that you think are worth watching?

This is a good one. He talks about lots of things including the relative lack of importance of “high quality” e85.

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